Episode 73 Overcoming Adversity Hazem's Story: Fighter Pilot to Coffee Roaster & Disability Advocate

What would you do if life as you knew it changed in an instant? In this episode I chat with Hazem Slater, a former fighter pilot whose world turned upside down due to osteosarcoma, which ultimately lead to triplegia.

Hazem Slater's journey is one of resilience and determination. Diagnosed with spinal osteosarcoma at the age of 14, Hazem overcame this formidable challenge, later joining the Australian Defence Force Academy (ADFA) and progressing to the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). When illness redirected his career path from piloting to law, Hazem continued to secretly battle the recurrence of osteosarcoma.

Throughout his journey, he has become a powerful disability advocate, speaking up for the oppressed. Today, Hazem is the director of the award-winning Wick Coffee, where he continues to inspire and lead with unwavering strength and dedication.

This episode is a powerful reminder of the strength of the human spirit and the impact of maintaining a positive outlook, seeking support and helping others amidst life's biggest challenges.

Contact Details:

Hazem Slater, Wick Coffee

w. www.wickcoffee.com

e. beans@wickcoffee.com

p. 1300 942 526 / 1300 WICK COFFEE 

Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/

Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/

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Credit for the music used in this podcast:

The Beat of Nature

Music by Olexy from Pixabay

Chapters

• 0:31 Life-Changing Journey of Hazem Slater
• 8:03 Medical Journey and Career Transformation
• 18:38 Challenges of Medical Rehabilitation
• 25:43 Navigating the Healthcare System
• 36:24 Living With Chronic Pain and Disability
• 40:12 Mental Health and Support
• 48:53 Advocating for Disability Rights
• 53:02 Understanding and Advocating for Disability
• 56:51 Fighting for Disability Rights and Understanding
• 1:08:35 Navigating Disability Etiquette and Support

Transcript

Fiona Kane: 0:31

Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection Podcast with Fiona Kane. I'm your host, iona Kane, and today it's exciting because I have a guest again. I haven't had a guest for a while. My guest today is Hazem Slater. Hi, hazem.

Hazem Slater: 0:44

Hey, how are you going, Fiona?

Fiona Kane: 0:47

I'm well thanks today. How are you going Not?

Hazem Slater: 0:49

too bad, not too bad. The sun's out so we're all winning.

Fiona Kane: 0:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so. So look for those who don't know you, would you like to introduce yourself?

Hazem Slater: 0:58

yeah, sure, look, I'm a uh triplegic. Um, about five years ago it happened. I've always suffered with uh spinal osteosarcoma, which, for those who don't know is basically it's a tumor that eats away your bone. Um, usually in adolescence. I first got diagnosed at 14 and then been on and off in a wheelchair and whatnot since then, but permanently it came back. I came out of remission about five, six years ago and it's taken its toll on me and it's so much so that it's rendered me a triplegic now.

Fiona Kane: 1:36

Okay, yeah, yeah, and you're also a businessman.

Hazem Slater: 1:41

I am. I am. I manage a coffee roasting business and supply beans to cafes and restaurants and retail. That all came about by accident, but, yeah, I'm still in the workplace and still trying to keep active as much as I can, despite the hurdles that I have been given in this lifetime.

Fiona Kane: 2:04

Yeah, so you and I had a chat the other day. I record another podcast, a business podcast, and I found your story really really interesting and I thought that it would be really interesting for my listeners, because it really is a story where you've had to do a lot of adapting and adjust your mindset and make different changes in your life. That can be really really hard to make. So would you mind just starting maybe by just telling a little bit more of your story?

Hazem Slater: 2:34

Yeah, look, I started off as a normal, healthy kid, you know, had a normal life, a good family, hardworking, migrant parents, you know, working two, three jobs. It's a cliche story. Back in the 80s, I guess, Went to school, went to the best schools that they could afford and basically all I wanted to do in my life was to fly. So my head was always determined to become a pilot. I had my light aircraft licence at the age of 13, so there was a Sessna Piper Warrior, so that was an achievement in itself. Then from there went on to the Air Force Cadets and I think within 14 months I got offered a scholarship to go to ADFA, which is the Australian Defence Force Academy down in Canberra. So basically they pull you out of school.

Hazem Slater: 3:29

You do an equivalent sort of schooling with the Defence Force but it's more orientated to the defence. Basically an equivalent sort of schooling with the Defence Force but it's more orientated to the defence. Basically, and getting you ready, you know, to serve and be part of the RAF. There's a lot more testing that goes through, but I ended up. Long story short, I got through, I graduated, I became a fighter pilot in the defence. I did two tours and then on the second one, we were just doing a very simple reconnaissance mission and I lost feeling from my waist down. Basically, I couldn't feel anything, which is an issue when you're 30 000 feet up in the in the sky and you don't know. Yeah, is that like excuse?

Fiona Kane: 4:10

my ignorance, but are you controlling things with your legs as well? You can. You can still land the aircraft without it, which I did. Excuse my ignorance, but are you controlling things with your legs as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of things are controlled with your feet. I've never been in a plane like that.

Hazem Slater: 4:17

You can still land the aircraft without it, which I did. You could just do that, yeah, but yeah, you have to sort of scramble and start using your head, and I guess, when all your experience and training comes into practice because things can fail I could have had an issue with the pedal itself and you're stuffed, you know you still have to sort of overcome that. So I think the biggest thing for me is I don't panic very much. I didn't panic then because I thought I was invincible. You know, I didn't think anything was ever going to happen to me and whatnot. So, look, we just. I knew, though, that something serious was going on, because I just literally couldn't feel anything. I didn't even know I was sitting and you're strapped in pretty tight, you know, yeah, um, anyway. So we landed, and it took me about an hour to get out of the cockpit and, um, yeah, I was.

Hazem Slater: 5:08

My father always said to me he goes always make friends with only two people when you get there. One is the chef and the other one's the doctor. If you get hungry, chef will feed you. If you get sick, the doctor will make you better, and I did it. I actually did follow that advice and, um, I did become very close friends with the defense doctor and base doctor and he knew something was wrong. Um, and we're going back in an age where there was no MRIs and the CT scans were. You know, they were just starting to evolve. We had them, but they were very outdated, you know, yes, and you're running around, with all due respect to them, all these surgeons are in there. They're in there like finishing years, with like two years to go, and they're worn out and they don't want any headaches, they just want simple textbook cases and whatnot.

Hazem Slater: 6:01

Yeah, I think from there the journey just begun. I guess that was the defining moment. The minute I took my last step off the ladder out of that aircraft, my whole life changed literally on a dime, changed literally on a dime. Um, you know, it took us nearly 11 months, uh, to find someone who knew what was going on and could fix it.

Hazem Slater: 6:23

Um, and, and I guess you know you, just you, you go on these journeys not knowing you know what's going to be ahead, but I think going to be ahead, but I think some things of the past prepare you for that. Um, for me it was my military training. I don't, I think if it, if I didn't have such a stringent regime and a very strict life from the onset of my life. My parents are very, very strict, strict European people. Both of them there wasn't just one played good cop, bad cop. They were both hard, you know. And now, looking back, I know they did it because they didn't want me to suffer, and you know, having to work physically and whatnot, like they did. But at the time you just think, oh, they hate you and they're being you know mean yeah.

Hazem Slater: 7:14

So that in itself prepares, you know, it strengthens you, because you think, oh well, you know I can't be weak in front of these people and I want to show, give them that satisfaction kind of thing.

Hazem Slater: 7:24

So that mentality sort of went into the defense and then you know, you cop all the defense force, regime and strictness and you know they prepare you for everything you know um, but I think that helped, helped me get through um my life, even till where we are today um so, yeah, look, it was a very scary moment in my life because you were going, I was going in for scans and these ct machines where you know, you know, you know now ct, you're in and out in three minutes and it gives you a full 3d bloody image where back then it was black and they're black and white.

Hazem Slater: 8:03

And all I got told was wherever you can see white is bad and all I could see was white, like there's no black. So they were sending me from hospital to hospital to hospital back then and no one knew it was going on and first I thought the machine was broken and then the second one, something was faulty too, and I wrote the third machine three machines can't be broken, like it's just not possible, you know, um, and then I was sort of in pain and I wasn't in pain, so I couldn't specifically say that for certain that there was something wrong. It's like sinisterly wrong. But I knew inside that there was something wrong, like sinisterly wrong, but I knew inside that there was something wrong, you know. But again, it was a fight. You know, we were my father and I was dragging ourselves about six to seven surgeons a day for 11 months.

Fiona Kane: 8:50

Wow.

Hazem Slater: 8:51

You know, and that included natural paths and all sorts of holistic. We went down the holistic approach. Chinese medicine did everything because you know I couldn't walk Like you know, I was having bouts of feeling coming in and going in both my legs, and then you know all your other bodily functions that go along with that area. So you know it was a whole new world. And especially when there's no diagnosis, you know, or you're not a textbook. You know you're not what they taught you, sorry, what they taught them basically in uni back then, then you know you're just in the too hard basket. Piss off, let someone else worry about it.

Fiona Kane: 9:30

Yeah, yeah. And how old were you at this time? I was only about 22,.

Hazem Slater: 9:34

I think it was about 22. Yeah, you were still very young.

Hazem Slater: 9:37

Yeah, it was over about 24 years ago now. 23 years ago, yeah, so even in that, you know, I know that seems like a really long time and it is, but for something in like a field of medicine it's not that long. You know like to come from where I was having like myelograms to work out what was going on. They were horrible tests Like they were putting, I think, one in ten in a wheelchair. They were paralysing. One in ten. Oh, wow, yeah, so it was a really high statistic. You know, you've got big, big, big needles, You're staying wide awake and they're just throwing them into your spine and hoping for the best man. I went through hundreds of them because they had no other alternative. There was no other test.

Hazem Slater: 10:21

That was the pinnacle and that's when the MRI took over from that Myelogram test and I think the first MRI that I had. By that stage I think it was on its way to RPA Hospital. I think it was the first one. From memory it was RPA who had the first MRI in New South Wales and it was still coming from overseas in a container ship. So, yeah, but by that stage we had found, you know, a messiah, I guess, of neurosurgery and spines and, you know, thanks to him I'm still here to tell the tale, and I'm convinced that if we didn't find him that day, I don't think I would have been able to cope for very much longer.

Fiona Kane: 11:06

Yes, yeah, yeah, and you know, obviously, you know highly motivated, because when that's going on for you because sometimes people ask how do people are motivated about certain things, but it's like, well, you know, you've got a really good reason to be motivated.

Hazem Slater: 11:20

when you're in that situation, you're motivated yeah, look, I think I think it was a bit naive because I think my intention was just to get whatever the hell needed to be done and get back into the cockpit, like I just didn't think of anything else. There was no plan b, b Do you know what I mean? That was it. I worked and dedicated my whole short life to flying and that's all I wanted to do, and I just wanted to get fixed and get back into it. But it didn't eventuate that way. And then again you have to adapt. Like in every scenario and every situation that happens, you have to adapt. Something changes, no matter how small it is. It throws you off the course. You know, um and like I use a lot of aviation analogies because for me it's easy. But you know, if I'm, if you're in a, in a normal jet line, I've gone on holidays and you know they program the coordinates of where they're going to fly to and something happens mid-flight that you know whether it's a storm or they're in lightning or there's a volcano with ash, and they have to, you know, divert the course. They're still going to where they want to go, but they're going to have to be doing it in a different way. Now, as a passenger, that means nothing because at the end of the day, you just want to land at bloody LAX or you know Heathrow. That's all you care about and that you know. And life to me is very similar to a flight because it's you know. You know where you're going at some point, where you want to be, and it's sometimes not just as a direct, you know route, as you'd like.

Hazem Slater: 12:51

Um, you know when I had the surgery and what nothing was in 24, 26 hours. Surgery, the first operation I had. It was very difficult to, I guess, to comprehend that life was going to change. And what now? I think that was the moment I was in intensive care, if I woke up, because they had me on the ventilator for a few days, so, um, they didn't want me to move. But you can still hear everything. Doesn't matter how I knocked out you, I could hear everything that was going on. Um, there was no ability for me to respond, but I could hear everything.

Fiona Kane: 13:30

That must have been frightening to be hearing them talk about what was going on for you and not really but able to ask questions or get your head around it properly. Yeah, it's a super extraordinary?

Hazem Slater: 13:40

Yeah, it is. It's a super extraordinary feeling because you're in your body and you're not. At the same time You've got people talking near you or around you or above you, and you know I had my parents there at the time and I had a partner there. My partner at the time as well was there and you know they were all explaining everything that's going on and you know who's crying and who's not saying anything and who's not asking the right questions and you know, like in your head, you're thinking well, ask them this, you know, but you can't. You're trapped like you're physically trapped, so that you, you're trapped like you're physically trapped. Um, so that's an experience in itself, but I think in that moment I knew that I was never gonna fly again.

Hazem Slater: 14:21

Um, I think reality hit hard real quick. Um, and that's not having to say that I was ignorant to the fact that I knew that it was serious, but in my head I was determined that I was going to get back to flying. Yes, and still look, even after I left hospital I tried. I went and see the best rehab guy privately and, man, we were doing things that we shouldn't be doing at certain levels and time, but I was still quite fit back then. So I think that helped a lot as well, especially with the core strength and things and upper body strength and things like that. So we just used and just kept going. I was killing myself, I had tears coming down my eyes, but I was determined I was going to get back into that cockpit again. Um, I got as far as a simulator and I struggled in that like I struggled and I. You know it's only been six weeks and I will give it another six weeks and we ended up training on a day-by-day basis and we just got to.

Hazem Slater: 15:23

The reality is that I wasn't going to fly, so they didn't want to. The RAF didn't want to discharge me. They gave me an opportunity to remain within the defense. So I was offered a position to become a flight instructor and I declined, um, pretty quick. It wasn't even a think about it. It was like no, you know, I've dedicated. All I've done in my life is to fly. I know that's been taken away from me. I can't sit here to teach someone else to do something. That's all I wanted to do and I know that sounds really selfish, but you know I just had to overcome huge it's just knowing the truth about situation.

Hazem Slater: 16:03

Yeah, um, so, yeah, so I ended up, um, accepting an opening in law. So I ended up becoming a defense lawyer, um, so I did all military law and things like that. So, yeah, again, I had to go back into my head, into the books and study and everything was fast-tracked and quickly done. And you know, you've got, you know, 18 months to do a four-year course and you know, if you can do it in 12, that would be even better for us, like you know. But if you do it in eight, we'll give you an incentive. And it's like, well, hold on, you know, just give me the bloody certificate now and I'll just go wing it. You know I can't go any quicker than where I am.

Hazem Slater: 16:39

So, basically, from the hospital and rehab and home, between all three places, I ended up like studying, basically, and I had to learn everything and I graduated with honours at the end of it all. And then, yeah, they just threw me literally in the deep end, so a lot of court-martials and things like that. And then I went and I did a stint overseas for two and a half years in the States. So that was, you know, an experience. Yeah, yeah, but whilst I was over there I started feeling not well again. They had at that stage in Americaica had the mris it was an old school one but they had one and I went in for one and it started to grow back further down. So I ended up having to come back home again, went back and saw the neurosurgeon. That helped me initially and he rushed me. I think I'm pretty dead certain he put me in that afternoon I think. I saw him in the morning and I was admitted immediately for surgery the following morning and again, that was just another setback.

Hazem Slater: 17:41

Now you know you think, okay, I talk a lot about my spine and it was my spine. But your spine is an operating system in itself and you think about it like a data cable bank. You know where you're, a server, basically your brain's the modem, and the rest is the cables to get from the top all the way down. So you have to understand that. You know your bodily functions I mentioned before and you know your leg power and strength and all sorts of things get affected. It's not just your spine, and you know rip it out and off, you go running again tomorrow. It's not your spine, and you know rip it out and off, you go running again tomorrow. It's not you know, um, and I think that that again, I think I was still thinking I was invincible. At that point, um, I had the surgery, I was still practicing from bedside, basically I was doing representation from the bedside.

Fiona Kane: 18:28

At that point, of course, you were, yeah based on what I know about you at this point, that's not surprising.

Hazem Slater: 18:38

I was in hospital, for I was in the spinal unit at North Shore for about oh geez, that was about five months, I think the second time around, so plenty of time of nothing to do. So we utilised it, yeah. And then, you know, we'd overcome it and it was just basically a lot of back and throwing. And you know, we'd overcome it and it was just basically a lot of back and throwing. And then they started, you know, discharging everybody to go into civil, to become a civil lawyer or barrister, basically, and I missed the first. I thought I'd be the first lot of retrenchments to come through, but I wasn't and I was like damn. So, yeah, you know, know, I ended up doing another I think it was about three years, I think after the first few rounds, and then it was the fourth round. I thought I said some, just give it to me. Like you know, I'm like there's three of us left, like who are you? There's no one else to get rid of? Oh, no, we'll keep you here, we'll keep you here, we'll keep you here. And eventually we ended up, I ended up leaving. So they, they gave me the, they gave me my pack well, they called it a package back then, yes, and um, yeah, I went, I got headhunted up in queensland because I was in amberley at that time. So I got transferred up to rathbos, amberley and I got headhunted up there by a couple of law firms and you know, it was again. My whole life has been stop, start, stop, start, stop, start, because you sort of go okay for a year and then something happens that throws you out for six months. Yes, and I ended up getting to the point where I just couldn't commit to working for a firm anymore because it was just, you know, you can't take someone's matter on and then you know, halfway through a trial you're absent, like it's not fair to the client and it's just not the right thing to do. So I ended up just doing consulting work, basically, and just more advisory and directory roles. There was no need for me to be taking everything on full-on because it came back really hard.

Hazem Slater: 20:37

If, um, about 2014, I think it was yeah, um, to the point where I had my last rights read out, like I actually thought that it was it. I ended up my whole body was black. Um, you know it was. I was. I was really sick. Um, it was christmas eve. That was a worst time and my neurosurgeon. They managed to get a hold of my neurosurgeon. He was about to step foot onto the plane to take his wife for a white christmas in new york and he let her go on her own and he came back um and you know it was.

Hazem Slater: 21:13

It was just funny, I don't know funny. It was just funny, not ha-ha funny, but it was just a moment where your whole life sort of comes before your eyes in 30 seconds and that 30 seconds seemed like a month but it was quick and long at the same time. You know you've got him in the lift, me standing up, barely standing up, like leaning against the back of the lift. The neurosurge registrar was on the phone literally like this. You know she had the phone like this, with a cannula in trying to get it into me, while she's talking to her best friend who was an anesthetic doctor and what drugs to mix up to knock me out, to try and get into my, into my spine, to work out what the hell was going on and try and get it out.

Hazem Slater: 21:58

And then you look at your neurosurgeon. He wasn't my normal neurosurgeon at the time but he had operated on me in the past and we had a very good affinity and whatnot. Um, he's looking at her and looking at me as if to say, why are you bothering? He's not gonna even make it out of the lift, like I was pretty bad. Um, and anyway he they knocked me out. They found an anesthesiologist had come in the local, one had come in to assist and that was a 19 hour operation where they had to take all my middle work had to come out. Um, so I had years of middle work in my spine or had to come out to get access to the tumour from underneath and more bone had to come out.

Hazem Slater: 22:36

And then I had to open intensive care. I was the only person in intensive care over that Christmas and New Year period and I was in there for about four months in intensive care, lying flat, I couldn't move. But then, you know, I sneezed and the top part fractured and then they rolled me and then the bottom part fractured and he's like, well, we can't go putting metal work back in because it's going to defeat the whole purpose of taking it out. You know, we're just going to have to ride the wave and that way it was nearly two years in hospital, so from 2000 and, yeah, he's got 2014 to 16. I think it was, um, I barely saw the light of day. A lot of treatments, a lot of chemo and radio, and the last round of it I said to my wife I just looked at her and I said this is it. I said I am not going through this again. You know I've spent three months hugging the toilet, vomiting, being violently ill. You know I was really in a bad way.

Fiona Kane: 23:34

And that's a whole extra layer on that too, with all the spinal issues going on yeah. It's another thing when vomiting could potentially you could potentially end up with a fracture from vomiting. Well, I did.

Hazem Slater: 23:46

I fractured three levels.

Fiona Kane: 23:48

Yeah, yeah. So this is like. This is not just like there's vomiting and then there's. You know what was going on for you.

Hazem Slater: 23:55

You know for me I've got other comorbidities as well, like as a result of it, like you know it's, you know it was one thing being a paraplegic, but I think the moment that I become a triplegic again, you know, like the necessity reason I've been the last three years I've become a triplegic, it's, it's hard. You know my other arm isn't, you know, isn't the best, and I don't know what I'd do if I lost everything, because I need help to do everything as it is now and you know, but at least I can contribute to, you know, pulling on a jumper and taking it off or doing something.

Hazem Slater: 24:23

You know yes um, but from being someone who's so independent and so hands-on and so physical, to have everything stripped away from you. Now it's, it's hard. I'm not not gonna lie, the you know people, a lot of people you know, um. You start meeting a lot of people in this sort of environment and I guess through all this now, um, I've ended up becoming a disability advocate for people who need help, basically who are not getting it. Um, you know, when you're in rehab, you hear and I just you know you hear stories and you just think hold on a minute, this isn't right. You're in a place here where the whole point of the word rehab is to rehabilitate you, to get you back to a point where you can be independent as best as possible yes and you're the place that's supposed to be giving these people these tools in order to do that, but in fact you're doing the opposite.

Hazem Slater: 25:18

That, to me, is a conundrum. How does that work? Yes, If I'm in here to learn how to walk again and you're telling me well, there's no frames, or you're not entitled to a frame to walk, well then, how do you expect me to do that if I've got no other power, means of power to get upright? And these are the hurdles that people were facing and during COVID I was in there for nearly two years, another two-year period in rehab, all surgeries and rehab. So I didn't see again. Two years I didn't see anybody.

Fiona Kane: 25:47

Yeah, that would have been dreadful.

Hazem Slater: 25:50

Yeah, that was a challenge in itself.

Hazem Slater: 25:52

Yeah, and I thought I need to start doing something from in here. So I ended up starting practice in my room, basically, and we were running around I was helping an older fellow and they were just refusing to give him anything. And there was a younger guy there who just had a freak accident and you know, he's getting knocked back because he's not entitled to this, he's not entitled to that. And you know, I'm thinking you guys all talk about it's too costly to do something. And I'm going to say, you guys, I'm going to be like the NDIS, now it's the National.

Fiona Kane: 26:24

Disability.

Hazem Slater: 26:26

Insurance Scheme.

Fiona Kane: 26:27

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 26:30

You think you know they'd be more vigilant to try and cut costs and keep costs from these blowouts? Yeah but in fact they just keep adding to them, like this day in the rehab, because you're nearly three and a half thousand dollars a day yes that's just for the room.

Hazem Slater: 26:45

Yeah, then you got all the other things. So I think we worked it out to be close to six grand a day. Okay, um, in fact, I think on the ndis schedule, I think a public holiday now, I think I think a normal weekday now rate for respite per day is just under $3,000. So that's just for one day. So some of these people are in rehab for 12 to 18 months, you know, depending on how severe the injury is.

Hazem Slater: 27:12

And this particular chap, he just had a freak bike accident. And this particular chap, he just had a freak bike accident. He was doing motocross stunts and mucking around and you know he knew he did the wrong thing and he goes look, it happened, it happened. You know, we've got to deal with it. And they were refusing to do a modification to his backyard steps to convert it from a ramp, from stairs, to a ramp so he could get into his home. Yeah, because it was $1,700 and he needed three quotes and blah, blah, blah. I'm like you guys could get this done in three days and get him home and you'd be so far more economically ahead than where you are. Instead, he ended up being there for close to 17 months. You do the math, it's 17 months times three grand or four grand or whatever it was back then.

Hazem Slater: 28:00

Yes, I ended up representing him. I got knocked back the first time. The second time I was very aggressive in my approach. We had an independent builder go there. I think it cost just under $3,000 to do the rail and everything that he needed. The job was started on a Monday, wednesday. It was completed friday. He was home.

Hazem Slater: 28:25

So it's possible, yeah, but they just need to be able to pull this, to push the right buttons and pull the right strings, and I think the biggest thing for me is is that I hate that they stick to a script. Yes, you know we are not. Doesn't matter if disabled or not you are not. We are not identical. Like we're disabled or not, you are not. We are not identical. We're not identical. My issues are different to you and to the next person than all your listeners. You know. Sure we can relate, there'll be someone there that has back pain or you know I get migraines or whatever it is. But when you're representing someone, even me, when I look through someone's case and they might be on paper identical, it could be that this person needs equipment with, and it's regardless whether it's a, you know, a shower commode or a wheelchair or a walking frame it's still equipment?

Hazem Slater: 29:10

yeah, yeah, but their needs are different and you might have five people that need shower commodes. Yes, but the needs on how they get onto them, like they need to be hoisted onto them. Do they need to be wider? They need to be narrowed? Do the they need to be hoisted onto them? Do they need to be wide? Do they need to be narrow? Do the wheels need to be, you know, self-propelled? Do they need to be small at the front or at the back?

Hazem Slater: 29:25

Like you know, I have to go through all these and I believe now that my path was that if I hadn't gone through what I had gone through all my life. And look, I. I've left huge gaps in my story back and forth, but I've given you a pretty much overview of it, of the jigsaw, and every day, like still now, like I just came out of hospital again, I'm out of remission, it's all come back again. I've got surgery on the night, so next Friday, and then the following week again, you know it's all back and you know it doesn't only take its toll on you, but everybody around you, and I think I told you that a lot when we spoke last time. I I can see very easily how people go to a downhill spiral.

Hazem Slater: 30:14

you know, and it doesn't take much yeah you're someone who can be easily persuaded, or you just are pushed so far into a corner and getting rejected.

Fiona Kane: 30:23

Yes.

Hazem Slater: 30:25

But I can see how you turn to alternative things, whether it's drugs or alcohol and things like that. I'm not going to want to say it never crossed my mind because I'd be a liar. And you know I did. I've got a liquor cabinet full and a wine cellar full of wine. It was easy and it was all in my harm's direction. It still is. You know, it's very easy for me to go and grab it and start.

Hazem Slater: 30:48

So, why don't you? I don't know whether I'm smart or stupid, I actually don't know. Look, I've got a very good. I think having a very good network around you is important and vital. My mum just happened to be a nurse, so she she's around me pretty much 24 7. I'm on, my wife works and whatnot and she comes to me to the hospitals and things like that. So and she's always there.

Hazem Slater: 31:15

I've always got someone, even medically, like I've become really close friends with a lot of my medical teams my neurosurgery team in particular, urology and things like that so we've actually become friends.

Hazem Slater: 31:26

You know, like we'll come to each other's houses for dinner and things like that and I will go to conference for them and, you know, do something similar to what we're doing now. And I'll get asked a lot of questions, especially in relation to my neurosurgery. At the time that I had my first surgery, I was the only one in the country who had that much instrumentation put into someone's spine at the one time. Until this day they still teach off my um imaging yes, back then on instrumentation, because it was done so well um. So they call you back in and you go in and help these people and you know you could be dealing with all sorts of questions and you know you might have a surgeon call. You know, last night I had a surgeon call and basically tell me to you know, give a kick up someone's bum to get up and get on with life, because the surgery that they had was minimal and there is no way that you could be in this much pain for the amount of surgery that we did.

Fiona Kane: 32:21

Yes.

Hazem Slater: 32:21

And then he rings me back. He sends me a text message about two hours after I spoke to the patient. He goes. He just basically just said love your work. Don't know what you said, but guess what he feels all of a sudden. He's had a miracle, he's up and he's fine.

Hazem Slater: 32:38

Yeah, Look, people deal with things and I don't know what was going on in his life, like he could have had a marriage breakdown, he could have lost, you know, someone close, but he didn't have someone there that he wanted. You know he didn't want to go home, maybe just have. You know, there's a lot of things that come into it. Um, you know, I remember once a few years ago I had a guy. He had a decent surgery. It wasn't small by any means, and you could just tell that he just had no desire or incentive to move on and get out of there. But the hospital will keep you in to a certain point.

Hazem Slater: 33:16

But then after that they'll say you know, and for them it's all a business. Now, like this industry is all, it's a business. You know, no matter which way you dissect it and carve it up, it is a business at the end of the day, you know. And then they start looking at figures and they've got to work to a bottom line. So you know, I think after two weeks there's three or four grand a day that they're getting paid from your private health insurer for the bed I think ends up getting cut in half after that 14th day for the bed, I think ends up getting cut in half after that 14th day. So, unless you absolutely necessarily need to be there, they sort of back off. But then they start putting pressure on and it's happened to me numerous times, like I'm clearly not well to go home and you're telling me, you're asking me all these questions and I know how they start them, so I nip them in the bud before they even.

Fiona Kane: 33:59

Yeah, so you know what this conversation is.

Hazem Slater: 34:02

I've been here for three weeks, blah, blah, you know, and then they sort of back off.

Fiona Kane: 34:07

That's a challenge within our health system, and I think in Australia, our health system is probably a lot better than a lot of others, but it's by no means perfect and there's a lot to be done. I just wanted to ask you, though sorry to cut you off, but I'm really intrigued by it Watching you talking to you and hearing about your life story. I think the theme that I see is that you find purpose is that, ultimately, no matter you have whatever's going on and you've got the grief of what's going on, or the shock, or the all of the things that you go through, the amount of time that you've spent alone in a bed just laying there, whatever, and and had so much time to think and you could choose to stay in the oh my god, this terrible things happened to me and just stay in that place forever. It sounds to me like what you do at some point is you turn your mind to purpose. You turn your mind to what can I do?

Fiona Kane: 35:09

And so, rather than dwelling on what you can't do now, what's not possible, it's like well, what is possible, what can I do? And then the ultimate is and this is something I. What can I do? And then the ultimate is and this is something I whenever I look at studies on health and what makes people healthy and what makes a good life and how people stay mentally well and physically well a lot of it is about it's two things. So it's kind of gratitude and being sort of just dealing with what is and just getting on with what you have, but it's also the ability to take yourself to stop focusing on you and to focus on others or to focus on like for you it's your disability advocacy.

Fiona Kane: 35:56

So, it's focusing on other people. So instead of staying in the oh my God, oh my God, whatever stuff that's going on in your brain, it's kind of going all right, that's enough. I think I'm just going to focus outwardly and look at what purpose, where I can find purpose and what I can change, who I can help, and does that feel what I've just said there? Does that feel like that makes sense for what?

Hazem Slater: 36:19

you've done.

Hazem Slater: 36:24

Yeah, I think you hit it now on the head. Um, for me it's, I think, diversion, I think it's the form of diversional therapy. Um, I already know what's wrong with me, like, I already know what's wrong. I feel it, I live it every day. I'm in pain 24 hours a day. You know, um, sitting sitting for me, my you know wheelchair is difficult, you know, know, and these are things that I have to deal with. Yes, I accept now the fact I'm a triplegic, but what I don't accept is that I can't sit in my chair without being pain-free, even to go to a doctor. You know, it is hell for me, like it is absolute hell. You know, yesterday I had to go and get tests and see the oncologist and whatnot, and they know the situation, but yet it's like they don't care. You know what I mean and I know that may not be true, but it's like let's hurry this up because you know I'm not comfortable and I've still got an hour to get home yet and every bump on the road is going into my back. Yeah, I have a feeling I have left. The pain is just immense, you know.

Hazem Slater: 37:22

Know, how many drugs can you swallow, like I? You know they don't hand them out and like they used to. Well, now they've got these. Um, new safe script, new script, new south wales then you're monitored now. Um, so if you're not following the script to the absolute t and you take an extra one, and I'm shit, I'm one down for the morning, I better go get another box. They won't give it to you like. So, you know, and a lot of um, my pain specialists they're just not giving narcotics, irrespective they know the pain that I'm in. Yeah, um, and they looked they do.

Hazem Slater: 37:50

Now, after we've had really in-depth conversations and brutal ones, yes they've sort of woken up and said, okay, look, we'll give them, but we've got to do them on this sort of basis and you know that's great. But how do I live my life? You know, you're okay, you're paying free, but I'm not, and I don't think that's fair you've got nothing wrong with you, like I'm missing.

Hazem Slater: 38:08

I think it's close to 92 percent of my actual spine now. It's all been accumulated by middle work, whether it's rods, hooks, screws, bolts a whole lot, yeah, so whatever's left is not much, but whatever's left is hurting. And then, like I said to you, I've got other comorbidities it spread, my knee had to get. Both my hips had to get replaced because it got completely. My left one got completely in the way, so that prevents you from sitting upright in a wheelchair.

Hazem Slater: 38:34

So you're having all these other surgeries as a result of the initial diagnosis, yeah, and it's another thing you need to get over. Yeah, diagnosis, yeah, and it's another thing you need to get over. Yeah, you know like it's. I mean, I spoke to the urologist yesterday for the surgery we're having next Friday and he shook his head and he goes. You know what he goes. I think if it was someone else in your shoes, he goes. I don't think I would have been contemplate considering surgery on them. He said, but you've just got such a good, you know you, you just look forward and you know I get that. I get told that a lot, but at times I don't feel it, you know. I mean, um, I've still got a family. My head goes where.

Hazem Slater: 39:12

I've still got a family to worry about yeah um, you know I need to provide for them as best I can. You know I've got two elderly parents. You know my in-laws, you know my father-in-law passed away right when I was in the midst of it all, like coming back again, so it was challenging. You know a lot of people don't look at the outside factors. I used to. You know, years ago I used to say I don't care about me because I can have a pill and the pain goes away. But your family don't have that luxury because they still witness you being in pain and being ill and whatnot.

Fiona Kane: 39:46

Yeah, and this can be. These kind of challenges, I think, are hard on everyone involved, aren't they? It's not only the person with the health issues, but the people who support that person with health issues, and at times they're there for them too.

Hazem Slater: 40:00

Yeah, I actually believe that the people that are around us, they're no different to us being superstars. We've got the Olympics going at the moment. If I was a 1,500-metre swimmer, everyone's eyes are on me At the moment. I think that's how my life feels, and it's not a star of a show that you want to be a part of, but it's the one that you've been dealt and there's no, you know, we can't change it now. I can only maintain and manage it and keep moving forward. But I've always, you know, been a believer that I don't go through what I've gone through in vain, like for me. I think there's a reason why I've had gone through this, because I would have never been able to help the people that I help now.

Fiona Kane: 40:41

Yeah, and that's actually why it's really important, because what you've been telling me today and when I spoke to you the other day, is how you are making it real for the surgeons. You are letting the surgeons and the medical teams know this is not on, this is okay, this is not okay. These are the things you need to know, these are the things you need to understand, or whether it's in rehab or wherever it is, because, honestly, people don't know. People don't know what they don't know. They don't understand what they don't understand, and there's only so much. Even just talking to you, obviously, I can sort of just mentally kind of get a bit of a picture of what you're talking about, but I don't know, I'm not in it.

Fiona Kane: 41:23

So you are the only one and people in your situation who can actually say the truth, and I think we need to say the truth. We need to talk about the truth, because if we don't deal with the truth, we can't fix anything, and even if that fixing is being more aware of someone's comfort or what that can look like, or more aware of accessibility's comfort or what that can look like, or more aware of accessibility for people, or whatever it is, but these are really important conversations to have and instead of making other people around you feel because what could happen and I think maybe what does happen a lot is we don't want other people around us to feel uncomfortable, so we kind of just don't say anything because we don't want to people around us to feel uncomfortable. So we kind of just don't say anything because we don't want to rock the boat or make people feel bad and the intention isn't necessary to deliberately make people feel bad or whatever, but it is actually.

Hazem Slater: 42:12

If we don't address these things, if we don't talk about them, they can't be fixed so I agree with you 150 percent on that, fiona, because I came from a generation where, back then, you know, a doctor was like a priest. If he said this is what has to happen, then it was yes, sir, yes, sir. You don't question him, you don't question the surgeon. If they said you've got to do this, that's it. You do it because that's what they've said. Yes, but as time evolves and I started feeling that, you know, they were trying to do things and things weren't working, or things were going back, where I was getting worse rather than getting better. Yeah, um, and coming from the background that I came from, it was literally like the penny just dropped, um, and I thought you know what? This can't keep going on and I started questioning them why are we doing this when this is a situation?

Hazem Slater: 43:01

And I had a lot of time, you can appreciate. I have had a lot of time to research the human body. I'm very, um, well inept um with medicine. I actually ended up doing my GAM stats. One of the neurosurgery registrars drove me insane to practice. She wanted me to practice medicine. So, as a joke, I ended up doing the GAM stats and I passed um so what is that?

Fiona Kane: 43:21

sorry, I don't know.

Hazem Slater: 43:22

So gam set is to get into the, into medicine basically. So it would have been a whole new degree to get into, to become a doctor, basically. Yes, um, and for a while there I thought, okay, I'll change, I'll become an orthopedic surgeon and I'll just do hips and knees and, um, try and come up with some strategy that an athlete can get back onto the track or onto the field. You know, in record time with something that I create an event. You know, that was where I was headed. And then I quickly sort of thought you know what, why am I punishing myself even more? Like you know, be real here, for me it was a distraction, you know.

Hazem Slater: 43:57

I did took the focus off my issues because I was in hospital. I knew I had issues. You know I get a nurse coming every two hours with something telling me that I've got an issue and I need to take this pill for this, for this, or I've got a pill for that, or I gotta have a scan for that, so I didn't need reminding of why I was there. Um, you know, um, mentally it takes, it takes its toll. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm invincible, because I'm not. How do I deal with it. If I'm going to be honest with you, I actually don't know how I deal with it. I think the military sort of teaches you to shut all your feelings. It's almost like I don't care if that makes sense, and I know that sounds really strange, but I think to your listeners. I think some people will relate like, especially if you've got kids and whatnot, like you've got to just keep going. You don't have a choice.

Fiona Kane: 44:51

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 44:52

There's no option. You know you've got to feed these kids, you've got to wash them, clothe them, whatever it is. You know, and for me, my baby is my business now and you know I've got a clientele list and if I can't serve them and keep up with their requirements, then I shouldn't be doing what I do. But again, it's me managing my diary. I was letting a lot of people dictate the way I did things and that was again a way out for me. I used to speak to a therapist. I'm not going to lie.

Hazem Slater: 45:23

I used to speak to a therapist, I'm not gonna lie. Um, I used to speak to her every week, um, and I haven't spoken to her for about six months. If we're being real, um, I know this is gonna sound stupid. I just haven't had the time to sit down and talk about basically, um, and I know I'm strong enough in my head that I know that if I have to, that I I will kind of go there, um, but a lot of people are scared or they just think, oh no, you know, you just get this. There's still that stigma out there that you see someone, um, I think it would be very abnormal for someone who even a quarter of my situation wouldn't have any thought go through their head. You just wouldn't be normal. It just wouldn't be possible.

Fiona Kane: 46:10

Yeah, and the good thing about a therapist as well is that, because in your situation I don't know I'm thinking out loud here so you can just tell me if I'm wrong, tell me if I'm off track, out loud here, so you can just tell me if I'm wrong, tell me if I'm off track.

Fiona Kane: 46:25

But I feel like to a certain level you would feel like you're burdening some of the people around you or like you're making their life hard or you know it's it's that they're doing it tough because of you in some way. It is what it is, and so the last thing that you want to do is offload all of your mental like, all of the crap that's going on in your head, on those people as well. So having someone that's just outside of it where you can kind of go all these things are happening and just kind of just offload all of that stuff, uh is much healthier than kind of offloading it on your wife or whatever you know, because they're dealing with enough already and you know, regardless of what's going on in life, your partner is not your therapist.

Hazem Slater: 47:11

We need to have.

Fiona Kane: 47:13

You know, for a healthy relationship there does need to be a certain separation from that stuff. So it's important to have someone, whether it's a friend or whether it's a friend, or whether it's a therapist, but someone who's able just to deal with that with you yeah, and I completely agree with that.

Hazem Slater: 47:26

I think you know, as far you know, I know that we're all a family unit, but at the end of the day, we're still individuals, yes, and we've all got responsibilities and whatnot, like she's got to answer to people at her work and things like that. And the last thing I wanted to come home, and not that she would dismiss me or shut me out, but just think that the little time that I see her in this window, that I'm okay, I don't want to be wasting it to me in nonsense, when I can fill it with that void with happiness and just stuff, other stuff, yeah, yeah, and you want to create beautiful memories and beautiful moments, and and, and, and actually live like, have your life.

Fiona Kane: 48:03

You're alive now. You're right here, right now You're alive. This is your life.

Hazem Slater: 48:06

You want to live? Yeah, and that's exactly how I feel now.

Fiona Kane: 48:09

Talking to someone separately. That's fine, as you need to, but then just with your family. Be able to just be present with your family and just live your life.

Hazem Slater: 48:17

Yeah, yeah, I think that's the attitude that we've got now. I'd not, you know. You know, you know people like I remember years ago, people that was a huge thing. You know, we see yourself in three or five years time and you know, I think now, if I was back then getting interviewed, then what, knowing what I know now, my response would be very, very different.

Hazem Slater: 48:39

Um, but you know, in what way, would I just think know, you don't know what's going to happen in three or five years' time. I could have the perfect plan, but you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

Fiona Kane: 48:50

No.

Hazem Slater: 48:54

You know, I know of a client of mine now literally in that situation went to have an interview. He was fine. As soon as he came out of the office he tripped over something and went down a flight of 90 stairs. You know, he's now a quadriplegic, he's neck cold.

Fiona Kane: 49:11

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 49:11

And it was ironic that he said to me. He said you know, we ended up talking just outside of you know the actual matter itself and his response to me. We were talking and I said I had the interview go. You know, I just tried to try and chew up because he's got, he's got a sense of humor yeah he goes, would you believe, has, he goes.

Hazem Slater: 49:30

Yeah, he said to me he goes. Where do you see yourself in three years time? If we employed you? And I said what was your answer? And he just stared at me and he goes, what would you have answered? He said, you know, knowing now that, what you know now, and I just said to him I would have probably thrown the question back onto him if it was me personally, a because I'm a smartass and B because it's just, you know, not a question that you know I'd like to answer. You're asking me, you know, akin to how long is a piece of string? I don't know. Well, I don't know what's happening. You know, yeah, great, I'd like to be here maybe in three years time. I'd like to have done, achieve this, this and this, but my things happen. You know, I could walk out the door, he, you know, trip over and break my neck, and he looked at me he goes. That is exactly the answer I gave him oh, my, my God.

Hazem Slater: 50:21

And it was just utter silence.

Fiona Kane: 50:23

Oh, that's, oh wow.

Hazem Slater: 50:27

And you know it, put me back and he goes. I said to him what do you mean? He goes? I said to him he goes, I can tell you everything. My exact words to him was I can tell you everything that you want to hear. But in a moment I could just walk out of here and trip over and break my neck and it was just a freak moment where you just think, wow, you know, this person's life literally five minutes prior was not fine. He was a senior executive. You know he's a very switched on fellow.

Fiona Kane: 51:02

I got shivers going through my body. That is just such a freaky story, yeah.

Hazem Slater: 51:06

And you know then now he's dealing with hurdles with the NDIS because they're not giving him the care and support that he needs. He needs a particular chair, obviously. Now he needs a chin control because he can't operate it, but they're determined for him to use his hand. But he's a quadriplegic and I have to explain to people that a quadriplegic doesn't have the ability to use their legs or arms and therefore has got chin control. And I've got 50 pages of reports to back that up by various medical fields. And it's still not enough. Because they're reading off these blasted scripts that's scripts and I stop them off, these blasted scripts, the scripts, and I stop them. I just don't let them talk anymore. I used to. I just say, look, just stop reading and start writing what I'm telling you and start adding to your file what I've just sent you, because this is what's real. These are the facts and they're undisputed. This client now has a C3 severing of the spinal cord.

Fiona Kane: 52:02

They're undisputed.

Hazem Slater: 52:04

This client now has a C3 severing of the spinal cord. You know, he can only use his chin barely and this is what he needs to be approved. Oh, but it's a $3,000 addition to the chair, bad luck. That's what the scheme is there for. The scheme is there for this purpose, yeah, so it needs to be implied. That's a three-month argument, you know why should it take me three months to argue something? So this guy can't move. He's already trapped in his body for the rest of his life. He's only 45. He might have another 30, 40 years left in him. So, boy, he can't move in his own chair for the next 30 years. Yeah, you know, and it gets me because I can relate to it and I think I'm so passionate about it and I've. You know I'm not putting tickets on myself, but I've not lost a matter at the moment with the disability advocacy.

Fiona Kane: 52:43

You put tickets on yourself. That's fine, like you're doing great and I just Good.

Hazem Slater: 52:49

It's just something that I've become so passionate about that I will not lose.

Fiona Kane: 52:52

Yes.

Hazem Slater: 52:54

The more resistance I get, the harder I push back. Yeah, yeah, because I've got the experience now, medically, legally and personally. Now you know like I can relate, like I can just go on the arm and go look, I understand what you're going through yeah. You know, I may have one arm but it's not strong and I still need the amount of care that he needs. This is no different to the care that I need, because we still need the same things.

Fiona Kane: 53:17

Yeah, and I understand what you're going through isn't. I know how you feel. They're two very different things. So I don't think anyone knows how anyone else feels. You can think you might, but we don't ever really know. But you can say I understand because you've got a lot of experience, similar experience, and so I think I understand.

Fiona Kane: 53:45

I understand isn't insulting, but I think I know how you feel can be because, like I don't know how you feel, and even if I had the same injuries or the same issues, I don't know how you feel. That's right.

Hazem Slater: 53:50

Everyone's different like I said how I feel, yeah, you could have three paraplegics in the room and everyone's got different, yeah, issues, you know. Like one might have no pain at all and might have a mental issue because of it. Or the other guy just wants to go and find the local bloody you know rugby league wheelchair team and start playing sport for them.

Hazem Slater: 54:08

Like everyone's got different mindsets yeah we work with these people and I said before I don't take a cookie, a cookie cutter approach to represent these my clients, because they're not. Then you can't cookie cut a thing and it could be the simplest matter that takes the longest, and then you know I can't save the world and I can't help everybody but the people that I get referred you can help somebody yeah, I help a lot of people, but the cases that I get are now pretty much last resort, like they've probably had another three people represent them, whether they've been lawyers or advocates, and they've got nowhere.

Hazem Slater: 54:43

And I get, basically, I get them when they're at their end. So what I'm trying to do now is I'm trying to get them in the beginning, to try and nip it in the bud, to try and save a few months or years in some cases, um, before it gets to that point, because in that period these people still have to live.

Hazem Slater: 55:04

Yeah, yeah and no one understands that you know, like, what do we do? Between point, even if I'm having a conversation with them on a monday and I can't do anything until tuesday, that person still has one one day to go through. Whatever they're dealing with, they still have an extra. So you've just added another day of pain or mental illness or strain, or whatever it is, it's a mild inconvenience to you and to that person.

Fiona Kane: 55:25

It's huge.

Hazem Slater: 55:26

And then I feel like I've failed them if I can't get a result. So I just keep pushing. And I've got to the point now where I don't care how hard I push, because they've got an attitude of they don't care what responses they give us. So why should I care how hard I push?

Fiona Kane: 55:42

If this is the way you guys want to play the game with government, like with systems and government systems and things like that. They have their place and there's a lot there's good things about them, but there's a lot of rigidity in these systems and a lot of inability, it seems, of people to, like you said I would imagine you might, of course you might have guidelines understand, there's got to be guidelines and there's a lot of people kind of rorting these systems. However, in these cases that you're talking about, I just don't understand that level of rigidity. I would think that every single one of those cases would be an individual by individual case, and you'd be looking at exactly what you're talking about, the practicalities.

Fiona Kane: 56:27

This person can only use their chin, they can't use their arm, so why is that not just? That's just a sentence. And once you've said that sentence, then there gets a different conversation. For the life of me I can't understand why that is not just a sentence. Then there gets a different conversation. For the life of me I can't understand why that's not just a sentence. And then the conversation moves on to let's just deal with where we're at then.

Hazem Slater: 56:50

I just don't. I think a good analogy for what you're saying is this and this is the way I feel when I deal with people that are on the other end of the phone or the other end of the emails is, if you've had a heart rupture, like your aorta's ruptured right, you're on the clock.

Hazem Slater: 57:08

You don't have you need to get help. Yeah, or you're going to die within 30 minutes. Are you going to go and get the yellow pages or get on Google and try and find you know, look for a cardiologist or cardiothoracic surgeon in that minute to save your life. Or are you going to sit there and think, oh no, you know what I'm going to go. Do it this way because this is what I've been told. Yeah, this is what the book says.

Hazem Slater: 57:34

Yeah, so let's go by the book and we'll just see how that works out. Yeah, and I had a patient or client who passed now and they wanted to close the file on it and I thought you know what? No, these, these family and his wife and children deserved to have to know that this was going to happen, eventuated, and we ended up, I ended up setting a precedence now that, um, I made them commit to everything that he needed. Well, we weren't. There was going to be no financial gain to the family because he had passed. We wanted to know that what we had put forward was going to be accepted and then, you know, he was going to be a recipient of it and that took me 12 months because they just kept on going. The case is closed. I said, no, the case isn't closed.

Fiona Kane: 58:22

Yes.

Hazem Slater: 58:23

I said this is not on. I said I still have a responsibility to the family. Now I can't come back and say case is closed, move on to the next one. It doesn't work that way. Life is not like that. And I said to one of them I said if you had your child, if this was your child, would you be content with that? And she cried on the phone and she goes my child's got a learning disability. I'm like, okay, that could be an impact that's fixable.

Hazem Slater: 58:49

Yes, it doesn't need to be on the ndis and I know I might sound terror you know it's horrific and horrible for saying that, but when you're in it in the situation and you're hearing stories of people getting you know 25 year jail sentence for rape and the day one they're out on a 1.5 million dollar ndis plan because their head's not right. But yet I've been fighting for six months for an eight-year-old girl who needs a wheelchair and they're telling me she can walk. When she's got a T8 injury, sort of severed spine at the T8 level, she's not walking again and it took me six months to get someone to say yeah, I think you're right, we might need to approve her for a wheelchair. Yeah, to the point, the parents sold their family car to get her a chair. Yeah, and we were only talking $6,000 to $8,000. I think at the time we weren't talking like $80,000 for a chair like mine, for instance.

Fiona Kane: 59:38

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 59:40

And this is what I deal with every day. Yeah, I can see what motivates you, and that, to me, is a driver Like I. Just I'm not going to let this eight-year-old, you know, get carried around everywhere she goes. And I said to them what's the alternative. Every time they couldn't give me an answer. They kept reading off the script. At this time, blah, blah, blah. Stop reading the script, give me an answer, you know. And I think the point, my main point, is, is they've got the system in itself. Overall is probably a B+, yeah, is probably a B plus, yeah, but the operators within it are an F, because you've got people that have no experience or no knowledge running basic other people's lives and when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it all, that's exactly what they're doing.

Fiona Kane: 1:00:27

Yeah, just a ticker across on a form or something.

Hazem Slater: 1:00:31

Or you need to check a box to move on to the next life Yep. And that person who has no experience, absolutely no experience. I actually ask them now what experience have you got with this situation? Oh, no, look, I just employ and disapprove, and disapprove things. Yeah, so you have no experience whatsoever.

Fiona Kane: 1:00:50

Oh.

Hazem Slater: 1:00:51

And yet you're telling me that this person can't have this, is not entitled to this. When you don't have any experience, I go back to the cardiothoracic surgeon. You know your life is on the clock. Are you going to go to someone who doesn't know anything about cardiothoracic surgery or are you going to take the first guy that's in the emergency who's got half a chance of saving your life?

Fiona Kane: 1:01:11

Yes, a thoracic surgery or you're going to take the first guy that's in the emergency who's got a half a chance of saving your life. Yes, yeah, you know it is. Uh, uh, years ago I did, um, some fire warden training, uh, many years, many years ago, and they were showing us videos and talking to us about different emergencies that happened. And, um, and I have a friend who also was working for bbc at the time when they had there were some fires in the underground in London. I think it was at King's Cross Station.

Fiona Kane: 1:01:35

I can't remember which station it was and he said that, like the fire was on the escalator, there was a fire on the escalator and he said that. So staff went down to the bottom and were stopping people from getting on the escalator. There was people punching the staff and getting on the escalator to their death right. And I also saw other things, like where there'd be a shop and there was a fire at the entrance to the shop, in the chip display, and there was only one way in and one out of the shop. People were still walking in to buy their milk, right.

Fiona Kane: 1:02:12

And some human beings anyway, seem to have a real inability to reframe and kind of go oh okay, hang on, the situation's changed. Hang on, this doesn't fit the script, hang on, this doesn't fit To be able to kind of go okay, I've got these rules, or I've got in my mind this set idea of what I'm going to do. Look around, okay, it looks like the situation's changed. Maybe I need to rethink this. Some of us seem to have a much more rigid mind that is unable to look at new information and look at I don't know. It just seems to be a human trait that some humans have more struggle with this than others.

Hazem Slater: 1:02:54

Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. Like there's just no. You know, some people are so set in their ways. You know, like I was at hospital yesterday, for instance, and there was a gentleman there and you know, normally he goes and sees one person first and then you know, blah, blah, but this particular person was running late, he got held up with other patients and the other person had finished early and he made a whole drama and shenanigan about oh no, I've got to go to her first, and she's like it makes no difference, like you know. And at the end I said, mate, if it bothered you that much, don't worry about it. Mate, I'll take the spot. And I did. I ended up going in and I talked to her for about 10 minutes and she's like I don't understand, she goes, he has to come and see me anyway, whether it's first or second, it makes no difference.

Fiona Kane: 1:03:40

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:03:40

And I'm thinking to myself and I know he's pretty ill I'm thinking you must have been an arse in your life, because to be in the situation that you're in, knowing that you're on a, you know, before Christmas limit estimate and you're still acting in that way, that's wired into you. Yeah, that does you know. That's just who you are as a person, as far as.

Hazem Slater: 1:04:04

I'm concerned. And then when you've got a whole waiting room looking at each other going, what the hell? You know, I just I'll take it, mate. What to do, I don't care when I see her, I've got to see her. Now or after, it makes no difference. Look at Isaiah, but in his head I had to go see the other person first.

Fiona Kane: 1:04:18

Yeah, yeah, and that's one of the things I think that I've learned the flexible in your mind. Around things and reassess things, see what a new reality is and go from there. That's a huge part, I think, in life. Life is not easy, life is not easy at all and it's really really hard for some people and harder for some than others, but ultimately, the more flexible we are in our mind, the easier is probably the wrong word, but the the better the outcome will be. Ultimately, I think, the more fixed we are in our mind, the heart, we make it harder on ourselves, harder than what it already is. Yeah, and people, I think a lot of people.

Hazem Slater: 1:05:09

I find that you got you got sort of two ends of the coin, two sides of the coin. You've got people that are fearful of success. Now that success could be you getting better or you beating if it's cancer or tumor, whatever it is right. Then you've got the other side where they fear everything, they fear death, they fear not having an income, and both sides are legitimately warranted in some people's instances.

Hazem Slater: 1:05:36

This man I was telling you was a quadriplegic, you know he was earning I think $300,000 a year salary. He's not working anymore now. There's no income coming in.

Fiona Kane: 1:05:43

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:05:43

His wife's working, how are they going to pay the mortgage? So you know, and this is what I also do externally. So, and this is what I also do externally, so I sit down and I represent the advocacy just doesn't stop at getting things that they need. Yes, it helps for me renegotiating these situations with banks, brokers, you know, electricity companies, water company.

Hazem Slater: 1:06:03

People don't understand the gravity of what one moment in life and it's usually a split-second second thing, like when you get hurt or get injured or have an accident, it's literally quicker than a click of the fingers or a blink of an eye. Yeah, and that you know, whatever eventuates from in that moment it's going to dictate the rest of your life. Yes, whether you want to like it or not, and it's how you adapt and some people don't. I've had people they've committed suicide halfway through me representing them and I've warned people this guy, he's not right in the head. They look at me and they go. You're not a bloody psychiatrist, you're not an expert. I don't need to be an expert. I can tell this guy is not right. You need to keep him on watch.

Fiona Kane: 1:06:53

Next morning they found, found him, became committed to it, and I'm like Also, too, to clarify, too, that there's no shame. We all manage things the way we do, and I'm using you as an example of someone who's quite mentally strong and really managed this really really well. Not everyone does, and it's no shame about those people either. No way. There's no intention for me in highlighting the good things that you've been able to do, in judging anyone who wasn't able to deal with things in their life, because that's just how it is. We're all at different places and we've all got different levels, and you've talked about it. Even just your personality, your childhood. There's different things that set you up to be this way, and then you also made a whole lot of choices along the way as well.

Hazem Slater: 1:07:36

Yeah, I think it's all about choice isn't it From the minute you wake? Up, you know. What are we going to have for breakfast is a choice, yeah. What am I going to get dressed for the day? It's a choice, yeah, we all have choices and you know some people make wrong ones and you know some make People make different choices Different choices, you know. And it's everyone's journey. And it's no different to a parent telling a child not to do something or, you know, maybe try doing this instead of this.

Fiona Kane: 1:07:58

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:07:58

Because we've already gone through it and it doesn't work.

Fiona Kane: 1:08:00

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:08:00

You know what I mean. But that's their journey to take. Yeah, I can only direct, I can only like and again, as an as an advocate, I can only advise what my, what I believe is the best way forward yeah, if I'm getting sold on the other side of the table. No, this is what I want you to do yeah then I've got, then I've got a choice to say hey look, listen, this isn't going to work between us. You need to go find someone else yeah or okay, I'll do it your way.

Hazem Slater: 1:08:26

But you know, and I don't charge a lot of these people, 95% of these people, I don't charge. So this is all pro bono work. I get no financial benefit out of it. Gain out of this there are a few that I do charge and you know, for whatever reasons I have to, because it's a lot more work and I have to employ OTs and you know all different things. So they all cost money that has to come at a cost because that's and you know all different things. So they all cost money that has to come at a cost. Because that's time, yeah, but for the best part, and especially when there's children involved, there's just money doesn't even come as a factor. So for me the drive is that just winning is enough for me.

Fiona Kane: 1:09:01

Yeah, yeah, look, I am super aware of time, that we've gone way over, but that's not way over. We're a little bit over, and that's not way over. We're a little bit over, and that's okay because it's such an interesting story, it's such an important story, but there's just two little, probably two little places.

Fiona Kane: 1:09:15

I'd like to just quickly cover before we end. So one is I know that sometimes when you're in, when you get a terrible diagnosis or when you're living with a disability or issues, that sometimes the way people treat you or the way they talk to you, that people don't know how to talk to you or treat to you. Is there anything in regards to that, any advice you'd like to give people who, in regards to that, if they they don't know what to say or they don't know how to treat you, uh, is there anything in regards to that that you have advice around?

Hazem Slater: 1:09:49

yeah, look, I think the first thing is smile, because some people make fools of themselves and just to prevent embarrassing them any further, I just sometimes I just pause and I'll tick tock in my head really quick, like I'm really usually very fast on my feet. Um, yeah, you know, I guess people need to understand that no one understands a situation that anyone that that person's in at that particular moment. Yeah, like I said earlier, you don't know what's happening in that person's life. They could be disabled for 20 years and have no issues whatsoever and then maybe their parent passes away. You know it's very, you know it's a good question and it's a very tough one to answer.

Hazem Slater: 1:10:37

The advice I would go and say to you in one word is smile, because it's the easiest way to not put yourself into anything and not to embarrass people anymore. And look, I'm not going to lie. I've embarrassed a lot of people along my journey and I've made them feel like, really like shit, because some people just need it, they need a huge reality check that you know. I'm in a wheelchair, I'm up against a wall to try and make room for you to go through, but yet you're so stupid that you're coming on the inside of me and between me and the wall, when you've got 20 metres of space over there that I've made for you deliberately to leave me the hell alone.

Fiona Kane: 1:11:15

Yeah, yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:11:16

You know that for me is that is my. You know my clicker, like you know, that's my kryptonite. I go out of my way to be courteous, because I know that I've got a really big wheelchair and it takes up room and yet you're finding every option to come in between me and a wall when I've left you all that space. Why, yeah, like, are you that stupid? And you know it happens all the time and I call them out. Now I don't care anymore.

Fiona Kane: 1:11:40

Sometimes, you just have to tell people.

Hazem Slater: 1:11:42

Sometimes you just have to tell them and I don't care.

Fiona Kane: 1:11:44

The other thing too is when people are dealing with you. I would say, probably the best advice maybe and you can tell me if I'm wrong here, but one is, the other person is a human being, whether they're in a wheelchair or whatever the situation is a human being is a human being, absolutely. So remember that and, yes, smile, be kind and whatever. But the other thing is, maybe also take their lead. So just see where they're at or ask them what they need and see what they go along with where they're at.

Fiona Kane: 1:12:19

Now, what I mean by that is it could be, you know, when you meet someone and they've been diagnosed and had a certain diagnosis, right, if they're in a, if they're fighting that and they're all about surviving, then you support that. If they understand that that's not where they're at and they're in a different place, then you're supportive of that. It's like, wherever they're at, just support where they're at. But also just remember that person's a human being and I think you've got a human being in front of you and uh, and and don't. I know, sometimes if you're afraid, you don't know what to say, say, say that.

Hazem Slater: 1:12:58

So hey, look, I'm just feel like an idiot, I don't know what to say yeah, and I've been in support groups where um that you know, I've said just that, and they'll say you know, the question will come up wherever it is, and you know, and sometimes I'll just say I don't know where I'm at. I've literally just walked out of the office and I've just been told that hey, there's a new growth here and we're going to operate next week. And I haven't had time to process, so at the minute I'm at, I've got surgery next week and we'll just leave it at that. Whatever venture rates eventually, um, yeah, but yeah, look, I don't look.

Hazem Slater: 1:13:31

I guess adding to what I just was saying just now is that I always, when I deal with people even people if I'm just I'll put in the foyer, you know, it doesn't matter have to be my clients or people that I'm involved with, I think me asking them if, if they're okay, um, you know, is there anything that I can do?

Hazem Slater: 1:13:48

whether it's, you know, you need me just to hold your bloody cup of coffee while you sort your bag out you know and I find what I find and this is going to sound really ironic is that the people that are least able to help someone are usually the first ones at a scene or first ones to help. You know, I tipped out of my wheelchair. I was telling you the other day off air. Know, I tipped out of my wheelchair. I was seeing you the other day off off air that, um, I I tipped out of my wheelchair, completely came out of the chair in the hospital for you of all places, and I had two people walk over me. The person that came to come and render assistance would have been in his late 80s and barely could say she was shuffling to me to come and see how he was going to help me to get up.

Hazem Slater: 1:14:34

And my only explanation and it's happened multiple times in different incidents that it's always been someone who's either elderly or been in a position, or has someone in a position that can relate, that comes to help.

Fiona Kane: 1:14:47

Yeah, not someone who's able and you know like fit and strong People with insight are the ones who've lived it or seen it, or they have an insight around it, exactly, yeah, yeah, look, I'm just highly aware that I don't know if we're going to run out of space or something's going to happen and this isn't going to suddenly stop. I just, is there anything that you would like to say?

Hazem Slater: 1:15:06

just to end this, Any advice or just anything at all that you'd like to say to end this? Look, I think your listeners have probably gone through a box of Pana Dollars by now. But look, I think, all jokes aside, I think that no matter where you are in your life now, whether you're abled or disabled, is irrelevant. I think that times, you know, I'm a real black and white person. I'm real Like, I'm a kind of you can't be a little bit pregnant kind of guy. Either you are or you're not.

Hazem Slater: 1:15:38

You know, and if you're not, okay then there's no shame and there's no stigma of you know, there's a lot of helplines out there now, if it's just to talk to someone, or even if it's a friend or whatever it is. You know, now, if it's just to talk to someone, or even if it's a friend or whatever it is, yeah, you know, be brave enough to take that step because there are people that will help. Now. You know it's not 20 years ago where you know they think I know you're building on asylum. It's not the way anymore. You know, the realities are people are closing shops and businesses after 80 years and running at 60 years running businesses because they just simply just can't keep afloat, you know.

Hazem Slater: 1:16:09

And again that again that has a chain reaction. So you know, the world is not the way it once was, and then I think it's only going to get worse. I don't foresee it getting any better any time soon. Yeah, so I guess the advice that I have if you're struggling, then don't be scared to reach out for help. Yeah, you know, like I'm open, you know, to help people through certain aspects of their life. I'm more sort of medically based guidance, but you know I'm open to help people where I can and best can, and if I can't, then I'll just refer, you know. But at least you've got that first point of contact.

Fiona Kane: 1:16:45

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:16:46

And be honest to yourself, to say that you know. Yeah, look, I'm in a position, I'm struggling here. I need help.

Fiona Kane: 1:16:51

Yeah, and be honest to yourself, to say that you know. Yeah, look, I'm in a position, I'm struggling here, I need help. Yeah, yeah, that's really important. If you need help, ask for it. And look, the other thing I've gotten from your story really is just when one thing ends, it's an opportunity for something else to begin. So it's also understanding that the end of something isn't always. You know, there's hope, there's other things, there's other things in front of you, and the big one too. What I would just like to say to you as well is like thank you for all your advocacy. I think that you're, and you even. We didn't even get to touch on it, but I think you talked to me about making some new screws for surgery for spinal screws.

Fiona Kane: 1:17:32

You're involved in so much advocacy.

Hazem Slater: 1:17:32

Yeah, I said to you before I'm involved quite heavily in the medical industry now.

Fiona Kane: 1:17:36

Yeah.

Hazem Slater: 1:17:36

And I've sat down with a large company and we've developed spinal instrumentation, pedicle screws, the splines and fixations and things like that. Yeah, because I know the ones that I had in me weren't working, so something has to change.

Fiona Kane: 1:17:49

So I mean, that's the thing I don't know there's. I don't know if I believe in god or what, but I just sometimes you feel, I I feel like you can see that someone's just there's a spirit working through someone somehow. I don't know what it is, but anyway they just feel. It feels to me like you, uh, you've had experiences, certain experiences for a reason, whatever it. You're just getting on with it and you're actually just doing the advocacy and you've got this purpose and you're highly motivated to make all these changes and make a difference. And I would dare to say that you already have made a huge difference in the world and the more you do, the better it is.

Fiona Kane: 1:18:29

But you already have made such a difference and I just want to remind you of that, because sometimes we get so caught up in the next thing, the next thing and just like well, you have already made a huge difference on this planet.

Hazem Slater: 1:18:41

So thank you for everything you've done. Thanks, fiona, for saying that. Look, I don't see it that way. I think I'm just a very, very tiny clog in a very, very big machine that you know just somewhere down the bottom, that can help. Like I said, I can't help everybody, but if I can make a change in one, person's life.

Fiona Kane: 1:19:01

A tiny cog can completely change how a system works, though, can't it?

Hazem Slater: 1:19:04

No, you've got to work within the confinements of what you've given. Basically.

Fiona Kane: 1:19:09

Yeah, yeah, sorry, I confinements of what you've given. Basically, yeah, yeah, sorry, I was just like. What I was trying to say is that I think a tiny cog can change a lot. Right, because if you just think about a tiny, a tiny thing in a system can bring it to a halt, can't it? Oh, absolutely so you're this little agitator in a system.

Hazem Slater: 1:19:29

Yeah.

Fiona Kane: 1:19:30

And I don't underestimate that. I think these things they might seem because you're at the coalface, and because you're at the coalface and you're in it and there's so many as are, you know, from a broad stroke, I think that you're making a bigger difference than you may know, and I want you to understand that because I'm seeing it from a broader perspective, because you're in it and you're so far in it and it's so hard and it's so many difficult people you're dealing with. But I think it's much broader than this, and not only that, but even if we are making little, tiny differences for little people on a daily basis, that's life, that's what life's about, and that, to me, is making a difference too.

Hazem Slater: 1:20:06

It's the one percenters, isn't it? It's the one percenters, isn't it, if we can do one thing one percent better than everybody else and eventually those one percenters add up.

Fiona Kane: 1:20:14

Yeah, and if you're that one person on that day that cares, you're the one person on that day that listens, you're the one person on that day that smiles at another human being, that is actually huge on its own, without all the extra stuff that you're doing. But I just think, congratulations on all of your advocacy. I just really admire it, on all of your advocacy. I just really admire it and thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate it and it is really inspirational. And thank you for coming on today.

Hazem Slater: 1:20:38

No worries, thank you for having me on.

Fiona Kane: 1:20:40

I really appreciate the invitation and for anyone out there who's watching or listening, please like, subscribe and share, and please share this story. I think it's a really, really important one to share, and thank you so much, hazem. Thank you, thanks Fiona, thanks so much for having me on. See you all next week, thanks, bye, bye.