The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane

Episode 85 Navigating Body Image and Self-Worth in the Age of Social Media

• Fiona Kane • Season 1 • Episode 85

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Ever wondered how the seemingly harmless act of scrolling through social media could be affecting your self-esteem? Join us on the Wellness Connection podcast with a compelling conversation with Sam Ebblewhite, a somatic sexologist and intuitive healer who shares her deeply personal journey with body image.

We examine the pervasive impact of edited images on social media and the unrealistic beauty standards they promote, especially for young girls. Our discussion underscores the urgent need for self-acceptance and the power of authenticity in a world driven by external validation.

Fiona  candidly reflects on the struggle of maintaining authenticity amid personal challenges with weight, health and self-perception as a nutritionist. We then discuss how embracing our vulnerabilities may empower others to accept their imperfections and prioritise self-care over societal expectations.

We confront the delicate balance of self acceptance while cautioning against normalising unhealthy habits. Self-worth should never be tied to body size, however health must always be a consideration. Rejecting diet culture has led some to go too far in the other direction!

Finally, we delve into the nuanced world of cosmetic procedures, Sam shares personal experience and insights on navigating these choices, urging listeners to consider both mental and physical implications before proceeding. Our conversation highlights the significance of aligning one's mental, emotional, and physical health, advocating for a holistic approach to body image and self-care.

This episode aims to empower our listeners to embrace their unique body image journeys with confidence and compassion.

Sam's contact details:

Email: sam@samebblewhite.com.au
Mobile: 0419 776 186
Website: https://www.samebblewhite.com.au/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/samebblewhitess

Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/samebblewhitess/

Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/

Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/

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Credit for the music used in this podcast:

The Beat of Nature

Music by Olexy from Pixabay



Fiona Kane:

Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection podcast with Fiona Kane. I'm your host, fiona Kane, and today I've got a returning guest. Her name is Sam Eblwhite. Hi Sam, hey Fiona.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yeah, I met you a couple of episodes ago and we talked about mental health then and today we're talking about body image. So I'm a somatic sexologist and an intuitive healer. I'm trained in kinesiology and you know I just love being able to share my journey, you know, with mental health and body image, and then my passion about supporting others, but particularly women, on their journey, whatever that is.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, and if anyone's looking for that episode, it's episode 83 was the last episode that you appeared on, so if anyone wants to jump over there they can learn more about you, but I'm glad to have you back. Last time we sort of mentioned that. Let's talk this time. Let's talk a little bit about body image, and maybe I might just start with what interests you about body image. Tell me a little bit about body image, and maybe I might just start with what interests you about body image. Tell me a little bit about your story.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yeah, so I was thinking about it today, actually in preparation for the episode, and you know when, I suppose, my body image challenges kind of started, and it probably goes back to when I was about 11 or 12 and started to put on a bit of weight. So you know things, I'd been a healthy, happy child, but you know there was dysfunction in my family. We'd moved to Melbourne, my parents were fighting, they were having marital issues. Parents were fighting, they were having marital issues, and I think food began to be a bit more of a comfort for me. And so you know, my mum was an amazing cook and always cooked healthy food, but we probably had too much and treats were sort of everyday things and I think it became an outlet for me. So I sort of ate my feelings, I suspect.

Sam Ebblewhite:

And then, with hormones and stress and things like that, I'd started to put on a little bit of weight and I think that was when I began to kind of be conscious of my body as well as a time in life where I probably wasn't very happy, and that was the beginning of that journey. My mum had battled a few demons herself and insecurities, particularly around, I suspect, her body image and the way she looked, and so she passed some of those on to me as well. And you know I can remember as a teenager, you know, getting ready to go out and feeling good about what I was wearing, and the first thing she would say to me was you know, I think you have put on a little bit of weight. And so then, you know, it became all about the way I looked and my body and, I suppose, focusing on what was wrong with it as opposed to, you know, health and other aspects. Um, I was lucky that mum was a nurse and so, um, we always approached it in a I imagine I kind of think of it in a healthy way when I decided to do something about my weight. So I went to weight watchers the first time when I was 15, and um, always tackled it in a healthy way, which I'm really grateful for. So in the last episode I shared, you know, my battles with mental health, but you know I was fortunate enough that I didn't develop any kind of eating disorders or things like that.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I do suspect I've had periods of my life where I've suffered from a little bit of body dysmorphia, because I know when I got to, you know my healthy weight. I would look at myself in the mirror and still see myself as bigger than I was. But it's been really interesting kind of rewriting those stories. And you know, we talked in our last episode about the little voice that says all the negative things. Um, body image is one of the ones that I, I still, I still hear that voice at times. Um, and I, you know it affected so much of my self-worth and as a, as a young adult, then it sort of led me on a path where, um, I was quite promiscuous because you know, it was about self-worth, because if someone would have sex with me then I must be attractive and I must be okay, and you know, and so it led me down that path. So it's been a really interesting journey, but it all comes down to body image and self-worth.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, and something I just wanted to clarify too, just for those listening or watching. I got the definition of body dysmorphia. I wrote it down here just so I could explain what it is for those who don't know what it is. But essentially it's a body dysmorphic disorder is a mental health condition in which you can't stop thinking about one or more perceived defects or flaws in your appearance, a flaw that appears minor or can't even be seen by others, but maybe feel so embarrassed and ashamed and anxious that you may avoid many social situations. So that's body dysmorphia. So one of us has got some messages coming through.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Is that you or it's me? And I've got to see if I can turn off the sound on the sofa.

Fiona Kane:

I'll just pause this for a sec. We'll come back in a moment. I apologize, all right, I think we've fixed that problem. Hopefully we'll see how we go. But anyway, that's what body dysmorphic disorder is. And look, I think that, in my opinion, I think that everyone goes through something, and especially, you know, puberty is a crazy time and I think that everybody, no matter whether they're sort of the perfect weight, you know, inverted commas, or a bit overweight or a bit underweight or whatever I actually personally just because I talk to women all the time, and not just women, but men as well I think this is historically it's been a bit more of a woman thing, although now it's men as well. So I think all of us have a certain level of it, and I suppose it's a bit like last time when we were talking about mental health. All people experience sadness or different things. It's just at what level? Does it become a pathology? So I think all of us experience some level of dissatisfaction with our body or being unhappy with it.

Sam Ebblewhite:

But yes, I suppose it's the difference between whether or not you have that awareness and you get on with life, or it affects your life life or it affects your life, yeah, and I think, like you said, you can have moments of it and you can have you know where you and sometimes it can be because you're not quite where you want to be. But I think there are times where, no matter you know what state you're in, the thoughts can still play a part and I think and it can impact your life and it can impact your self-esteem and the way you operate and conduct yourself with others and choices of partners. And you know, I think, all of when, when it starts to impact lots of different areas of your life, I think that's when it when it's becomes something that maybe you need to look at and get some help with.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Did you ever see the film Little Miss Sunshine? I did see the film Little Miss Sunshine, one of my favourite films of all time, and I don't know if you remember it, but there's a scene in that film. So for those of you who haven't seen it, essentially this little girl enters a Little Miss Sunshine competition at some sort of like talent slash, beauty I don't know like kind of pageant type show. And when she arrives at the pageant and she arrives quite late and there's all this drama on the way there, it's kind of what the movie is about.

Fiona Kane:

But anyway, when she arrives at the place and she goes into the change rooms and she's getting changed into her outfit and I think she's seen all these other girls and I can't remember what's happened beforehand, but there's a few things that have happened beforehand and she gets in there and looks in the mirror and for the very first time she notices her belly and she's got a little bit of a belly, which is not an unusual belly, but there's a little bit of a belly.

Fiona Kane:

But you see her for the first time noticing it and kind of noticing it as a flaw, and that just like, like. Oh, I still think of that moment in that film and it's like, oh, this little girl's like innocence is like that innocent time in her life is over, where she didn't think about it, yeah, and now she's aware now that maybe she's got some flaw or some difference or something that sort of is wrong kind of thing. And I think that that's happening younger and younger for young girls today, I suppose, because they're growing up in a very different world to the one that I grew up in and the one that you grew up in. They're growing up with mobile phones, with smartphones and Instagram and YouTube and all sorts of images from a very young age.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Instagram and YouTube and all sorts of images from a very young age and comparison and, unfortunately, with you know, social media and the technology that we have today, images are photoshopped and we have filters and you know, we can crop a body and we can stretch a body and we can make it look a particular way. That is not real and a lot of young girls are trying to compete with a standard that actually isn't even human, it's not even real, but but they're. They're at a stage where they think this is what people really look like and and you know, there's also this um huge of comparison, which is always a danger zone.

Fiona Kane:

I think, when you start comparing yourself and thinking and basing your worth on how much you look like a particular standard, when we all come in different shapes and sizes, yes, yeah, and that's true, because when I was growing up, so I was a teenager in the 80s, so I was in my teens and then in my 20s in the 90s and I grew up on all magazines. I don't get any of them now, but I used to get, you know, cosmo and Cleo and Dolly and all that jazz. You know all those magazines and I do remember like so we back in those days we had supermodels and it was people like Elle Macpherson and Cindy Crawford and, I think, naomi.

Fiona Kane:

Campbell and Linda Evangelista and all those ladies. And actually not only were they amazing models that you know, I don't get out of bed for more than $10,000 a day, I think, was Linda's saying but also they were in kind of video clips for rock bands and they were dating rock stars. Correct, and that was bad enough. But the one thing I think that made it better than today is I knew, as a five-foot tall girl from the suburbs of Sydney, that that wasn't real, or that wasn't real for anyone, except for a very tiny minute number of people in the world, a bit like being a rock star or whatever you know. So at least I knew, like I knew I couldn't. I couldn't be that, yeah, and so I might want to, you know, lose weight or different things, to try and be a bit more like them or wear a certain clothes or have a certain handbag or makeup or something, but I didn't think I could be that, if you know what I mean we knew.

Sam Ebblewhite:

We knew they were the cream of the crop. They were the top supermodels they were like nature's chosen ones you know they were, like you said you know, six. They had a particular way they were and they were the top of their field. Yes, whereas I think now, you know, with the concept of influencers and all of this kind of stuff, it's like everyone's expected to be a particular way, not just. You know they were supermodels, they were the top of the top of the top. So I think it gave you a different comparison point.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and now, because it's influencers, they all kind of look like that and there's almost a look. You know there's that look and they all end up looking the same. You know it's like rather than be different, because at least if they're supermodels and even if they were touching up, of course they touched up pictures and stuff like that but you know, they still looked all quite different to each other. But now this look, the look that's in at the moment, is all exactly the same.

Fiona Kane:

But and if you, you know they brought in, I suppose what wasn't around or didn't come in until a bit later, is things like, you know, inverted commas, reality shows and the first round of reality shows, there were actually real people on them who looked real. Round of reality shows, there were actually real people on them who looked real. And after a few years of reality shows, now, when you see them, they've all had a lot of work done before they arrive on the show and they've all got an instagram account and an only fans account and whatever else is going on. So they go on to the reality show just to pump up their insta and their only fans or whatever, but none of it's like even slightly reality and they're not real ordinary people, if you know what I mean.

Sam Ebblewhite:

No, no, it is definitely about people that want to be famous and that's their agenda.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah. So it's not just the supermodels now, it's all around us. And even I was in. That's where I was the other day, that's right. I was in a that's where I was the other day, that's right. I was in a hospital emergency with a relative of mine and there was a girl in there that was all done up and all the face work and everything. Okay, the emergency at Liverpool Hospital, because it's so common these days. Actually, I do know.

Fiona Kane:

I know someone who has a group. She's in her. How old is she? She's about 30 and she's in her group of young friends and they're all sort of from the blue mountains of sydney. All of her friends have had their lips done except for one of the, except for her, and and they're all kind of saying, oh, you know, you should get your lips done and this. And she's beautiful and and her lips are very much in, uh, you know the right, it's the right size, based on the way she looks and everything. You know it's all in. Everything's in the what's, based on the way she looks and everything. Everything's in the what's the word Proportion, proportion, that's the word and it's like wow. But they just seem to look small because they're not sort of surgically enhanced, so maybe sort of. Can you tell me a little bit more about some of the strategies that you've used throughout your life to help you deal with this? This, uh, body image things, body image issues yeah, it's been interesting.

Sam Ebblewhite:

So, um, some of the strategies are a little bit similar to what I talked about in the other episode with mental health stuff. So I like to talk about rewriting stories. So and it was a process. So you know, I went through stages where I didn't like things about my body. You know, I actively sort of worked to change and got fitter and healthier and lost a little bit of weight. And then I noticed that even when I'd got to a healthy weight, some of these negative thoughts still existed. And that was when I started to question where they were coming from and started to recognise that maybe I didn't see myself the way other people saw me and that sort of. You know, I was getting counselling and I was doing work on myself for other issues, but obviously these started to play a part too and I started to kind of observe that how other people saw me wasn't the way I saw myself. And when I started to have enough of those interactions, I started to question the thoughts I thought about myself and go well, hang on a second, all of these other people don't think these things about me. Why do I think them about me? And that was when I started to kind of unpack it and go, okay, maybe we need to work on this. And so it was a little bit of a process for me. Obviously, for me, I'm mindful that, you know, I want to be healthy and I want to be fit and I like to look my best and do well with what I can for myself, but also for others, and I think there's a self-care component to those things. So I did sort of use that as a bit of a strategy. And then, obviously, you know, there was a talk therapy component. Awareness was a big part for me though. So, even recognising that my thoughts didn't match the feedback I was getting from other people, that was a really powerful tool to start the process of going okay, if this story doesn't match, I need to find a way to get the stories closer together. Doesn't match, I need to find a way to get the stories closer together. And then it's been interesting for me. So I shared a little bit in the last episode.

Sam Ebblewhite:

But I don't live a conventional life and you know, promiscuity was a part of my journey around self-worth and at times it was not healthy, but then there was times where it was an outlet and I think a lot of people like to feel desired and loved and you know, and and I'm a person who sexuality is quite an important part of my life, so you know, starting to acknowledge that other people could appreciate my body in ways that I didn't again helped me rewrite those stories, because it was about gathering evidence that was different to the bullshit I was telling myself yeah, so lots of different things, energy, work as well.

Sam Ebblewhite:

And then we talked in the last episode, like I feel like you sort of have this voice or a little person that sits on your shoulder and tells those negative stories to you, and what I found to combat with that was building up the other side, building up the positive stories. So when people would compliment me, or you know, especially when it was a regular thing, you start to go, okay, well, this many people wouldn't be telling me lies. You know, especially when it was a regular thing, you start to go, okay, well, this many people wouldn't be telling me lies, you know. Or if it's people that you trust that have no agenda to tell you something, you have to start to go okay, well, why do all of these people think this about me? But I don't. You know, odds are. I'm the one with the incorrect thinking, and not these 50 other people that have told me something. So it was about building up that evidence base to counteract my stories. So that was my most powerful one, I think.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and actually even feeling safe to accept a compliment. As I'm older, now I'm more like when I was younger I didn't accept them so well. But now I said thank you and probably I don't get them as often as I used to when I was younger. But you know it's. It's weird. We, many of us I've seen this in other other women and I've seen it certainly myself that as soon as someone pays you a compliment, the first thing you want to say oh no, no, like why, why, why can't we just say thank you?

Sam Ebblewhite:

I had a beautiful mentor, um, when I was doing a lot of personal development talk about. You know, it takes a lot for a person to go out of their way and compliment you, and when you discount that, you actually take away that from them, which is not fair either. Yes, so in a time where I wasn't comfortable about myself, I learned just to say thank you. In my head I'd be like I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but it was a process. And then I start to say thank you. And then, when you open yourself up to receive those compliments and you start to hear similar things, it's like well, again not. Why, would people tell me lies all the time. Maybe they're actually correct and I'm not, and that was a big process for me too yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's so.

Fiona Kane:

Much of this is about you know, and again it's we've talked about this in the previous episode just a bit, just about questioning the stories that we tell ourselves, and it is so important to know that they're just stories and we can question it, but also know that you know.

Fiona Kane:

So I'm 53 now and I still have that voice, and I've been up and down in my weight my whole life Actually, not my whole life, probably because up until the age of about 18, I was very lucky.

Fiona Kane:

I'd always been a very healthy weight, even though I didn't have a very healthy diet. I just, you know, young genes, whatever it was, genetics, whatever the things that were involved, but I had always been what would be classed as being kind of slim or, you know, a good size or whatever, up until 18. And then, when I hit 18, I started to pile on weight, and ever since then, it's been kind of up and down throughout my life. And I do remember, though and so I confirming what you said that when I was a size six, I was still questioning my weight and my size. So the voice doesn't magically go away when you match a certain look, because I look back at the photos of when I was a size six and I think, oh my God, you know, and at the time I I was thinking, oh geez, you're not there yet, but it's pretty good, but you're not quite there.

Fiona Kane:

So I don't know where they're supposed to be, but obviously I had a different view of what I look like to what I actually looked like at the time.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I remember looking back at pictures when I was 19, 20, and I remember I thought I was fat, I thought I had a fat stomach, and I can remember finding some pictures where a friend had done a photo shoot. He was doing a photography course and he'd taken some photos of me and I was in a fitted dress it wasn't overly tight, but it was fitted and I look back remembering what I used to think about myself and laugh because I was like my God, I'd kill for that body. Now, yes, but I didn't appreciate it and I wasted so much time hating myself and my body. Yeah, and it's just. I think it's devastating the amount of particularly young girls, but I actually think it's quite prevalent in young males as well now, especially like what we talked about with.

Sam Ebblewhite:

You know influences and social media and this setting this standard of what you're meant to look like yes and I just think I just hated on myself for such a long time and it impacted so many choices I made in my life. Yes, because my self-worth was so based on the way I thought I didn't look or I did look, and it just um.

Fiona Kane:

You know we face enough challenges in our life, but to spend so much time hating on ourselves is just crazy yeah, well, I delayed studying nutrition by a year because I didn't think you could be fat and be a nutritionist, and so so I was like, oh no, I can't turn up at college and be overweight, right.

Fiona Kane:

And then I've been up and down since then, and in my field it's even more challenging. So it's a bit like I don't know a hairdresser with a bad haircut or dentists with bad teeth is as a nutritionist when you carry more weight. And because I'm only five foot tall, when I put on weight I can't hide it anywhere. So I find that is quite challenging. And I'm in a job where I'm working with people and I'm working with a lot of women around their body image and around their relationship with food and around how they feel and around how they feel, and I'm also aware that my brand is health, I suppose, and it's all very confusing. Somewhere in all, that is very confusing because when I gain weight there's an extra layer of well.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I'm not congruent with my brand, and then if I feel bad about myself or if I have that negative self-talk, which I do, then I'm teaching people how to overcome that, and then I'm, you know, like so I suppose it's just proves that I'm human and I actually I find sometimes sharing our vulnerability and our story gives people permission to work through their challenges and know that as humans, we're flawed and we're not going to be perfect all the time impacts your ability to make the choices or affects your weight and, you know, even relationships.

Sam Ebblewhite:

All of these life things we turn to crutches and we don't necessarily make the right choices, and that's part of being human and, I think, part of. I think one of the challenges with the social media influencer life is that most of the time, you only see the good stuff and it's not real. People don't show the challenges, they don't show the unfiltered photo, they don't show the photo without makeup, and so people are trying to achieve something that is not real, whereas when you know you and I share our struggles and our vulnerabilities and and we and we're vulnerable and about what we go through, I think it gives other people permission that they don't have to be perfect. Yes, it's just about. It's just about you know taking the steps that they need to to make to be true to themselves.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, exactly, and it is the. The thing about life is this life is complicated and health can be complicated and mental health can be complicated, and I think you've just got to uh just travel through it, and one day at a time, and you know all the things that you talked about. I sort of you know people who listen to this will know my mother passed away a few years and it wasn't just my mother, there was about four or five people all around the same time and and um, all of the stress that went along with that and there was, that was covid and that was uh, so many things and I've had a few health challenges and then menopause it's just like your chronic stress and menopause, all of those things. So that's just it is, is what it is and I, you know, I I refuse to uh hide away, away and feel shame and not be able to live my life because I'm carrying extra kilos at the moment.

Fiona Kane:

It is what it is and I feel like it will resolve itself in time when I manage, when I'm sort of I'm doing a whole lot of things to deal with it anyway, in regards to managing my stress and managing my time and managing my health and all of those things. But I suppose one good thing, one thing I will say throughout my life, is life always has a way of humbling you and grounding you and reminding you that it's not always easy and reminding you, maybe, of what your clients or patients or whatever might be going through. But also, uh, you know, I've done podcasts recently talking to people who are dealing with life and death. So also you get a uh, you know, every so often you get a reality check and it's like I'm worried about my weight it puts you in respect.

Fiona Kane:

It's not the most important thing about me yeah, yeah, I um.

Sam Ebblewhite:

One of my little taglines for myself along my journey was, you know, about striving to be the best that I can, while loving myself as I am. Because I realized, you know, I can try to be better and I can work on myself and I, but on any given, I'm going to do better than others and it's so. My focus then became about okay, how can I heal and learn to love myself, no matter where I'm at? Because I should love myself unconditionally, not only if I'm skinny and I'm eating exactly what I'm meant to do and if, you know, everything's perfect, because that's not real. That's not a way to live.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yes, it's about, you know, just accepting yourself, not necessarily being in denial and making poor choices, but going okay, I'm not where I want to be. What capacity have I got to do at the moment? You know, have I got lots of things going on? You know, I lost my mum 14 years ago as well, and sometimes, when you're dealing with that, exercising and food is not your priority. It's kind of I was selling a house and sorting out all of the estate and dealing with the grief. So that was your priority and that's got to be the way you work through it.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah yeah yeah, with my clients I used to talk about love yourself to health and I realized that for some people that was a bit too hard, couldn't quite get there. And so now I'm sort of saying, well, if you can't love yourself to health, you can at least respect yourself to health. And so I talk to my clients a lot about just having respect with their body and I always bring myself back to things like okay, my, I slept last night and my body kept my heart going and kept breathing and did all these wonderful things for me. And I've studied enough anatomy and physiology and and, uh, system symptomatology, diagnosis, all sorts of stuff, to know that the amount of stuff that my body is doing constantly I don't even have to consciously think about to manage things and to keep me alive, is phenomenal. So I do have respect for that and I do kind of really appreciate. So I suppose I'm appreciating my body in those ways, so it's appreciating what it does for me.

Fiona Kane:

And you can appreciate things like where you get pleasure from your body or where your body's functioning well or if you can go for a walk, and I always sort of talk about how I, when I'm whinging about having to do weights or go for a walk or whatever I remind myself I get to. Not everyone can, so there's things like that that I do that just help me kind of get over myself a bit and kind of just get on with it. I find that useful and I find because, put it this way, you might have trouble loving yourself to health, but you certainly can't hate yourself to health. That's exactly right. And so at the very least I start with respect and having awe and respect about what my body can do, and then slowly, hopefully, you develop love, or at least love for different parts or different parts of yourself, until hopefully you can love yourself down the track, if that's possible.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yeah, I work a little bit the same way. So I talk to people about setting themselves up for success, because we have enough stress in our life. So, you know, when I'm giving people steps, particularly around body image and self-love, it's like it's not about adding new things, because that just adds another stress load and that can add something that you might fail at. So I talk to people about changing intentions. So, um, you know things, most people one of the ones I work with all the time is most people have like a regular routine in the shower, you know. So most people will wash themselves a particular way in the shower and I'll say to them how about, when you're in the shower and you touch yourself, you have the intention that you're giving yourself love and nurturing, you're taking the time to wash yourself and appreciate your body and appreciate those things and just changing that intention can be really powerful.

Sam Ebblewhite:

And you know, sometimes for people looking in the mirror I know that was one of my big ones you know I can present to the world and put on a face of makeup and dress well and present to the world that everything's fabulous and hide the bits that I don't like and emphasize the bits that I do. But you have those moments of vulnerability and for me particularly, you know, when I get out of the shower and I look in the mirror and I have no clothes on, that's a time that can be one of my trigger times and it'd be like, you know, can you look at yourself in the mirror and find three things that you like about yourself. Just taking those little baby steps to start to build that and appreciate something about you, you know, and just setting yourself up with just taking those little step, little step, little step, because when we try to do everything at once it becomes overwhelming and then we punish ourselves that we haven't done it right and we've failed again, and it just feeds into that old story.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, and also, just like we were saying, humanising that you and I use these strategies, we work with people on these sorts of strategies, and you and I still have that voice in our head as well. You know, it's okay.

Fiona Kane:

It doesn't have to be a sort of battle to kill the voice or whatever. It simply is. You know, rewriting a lot of those stories and it's kind of it's a practice. Yeah, it's a practice of those things learning how to have respect and learning how to uh, how to like or love some parts of your body, uh, and just bit by bit, as opposed to.

Fiona Kane:

Well, if you just don't absolutely love your body and everything about it, you know there's, you're failed. Because if we set out, if we're setting ourselves up that that's the goal, probably not many people would pass that. And actually, in fact, I've talked to clients who and people who have been models and different sorts of careers like that, and I can tell you that they don't feel better about themselves, even though you think that they should because they're perfect, aren't they? You know, like they, they don't feel like it either. So I think that the myth that of anyone who's feeling a hundred percent, sort of totally loves their body, totally loves their body it's just. I think that's a bit of a myth. I don't know if that person exists, but if they do, I don't think they do either.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I think it's a complete fallacy and I think even the ones that present that that's what they think, I suspect in those quiet little moments they think quite different thoughts about themselves.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, definitely. And there's some other things, too, that I wanted to talk to you about. So one of them is you sort of touched on it before, but so when we were growing up, it was all about being well. It got to a point anyway where it was all about being super skinny, and that was sort of the Kate Moss heroin chic look.

Sam Ebblewhite:

The coke and cigarette diet.

Fiona Kane:

So there was that kind of thing and look, look, that certainly wasn't healthy and there was a lot of people with eating disorders and sort of anorexia and those kinds of things. Um, what's happened now is not saying that they don't exist, because they do still exist, but again, the way the world is, things seem to just swing one way or the other. So what's happened is it's kind of swung in another direction where, you know, when I was at school, there was one girl in my class who you would consider to be obese. It was just one and it was very rare and it was very unusual. Now it's very, very common and obviously there's a whole other topic about health in regards to this and the obesity epidemic and all of that, and it's not really where we're going to today.

Fiona Kane:

But what I've noticed now is we've got this and I've done an episode on it, so my listeners probably have heard it before but we've got this health at every size movement, health at every size movement. And I have a real problem with that, as in I don't believe your worth, how many kilos you weigh, has nothing to do with your worth. So whatever size you are does not change your worth. So sort of just put that to side for now. But just from a health point of view, I just don't believe in health at every size. I believe health at many sizes and I don't think there's only one size or one shape that you can be to be healthy, absolutely. But you cannot be healthy at any size. Kate Moss was not healthy, nor is Lizzo. She's actually doing something about it now. It's interesting because she's kind of like the queen of that movement. So what are your thoughts on that? This sort of now? It's like almost it's one thing to accept and, like you said, love yourself, but there's a whole other thing to almost.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I don't know. We're of about the same vintage, so I'm 47 in December and I think, unfortunately, in our effort to accept and love everybody, we have normalised very bad habits. Yes, and like I look at, I have an 11-year-old son who is probably carrying a little bit of extra weight, um, and he, um, he has some, um, mental health challenges. He's a bit neuro spicy god love him. Um. So we have eating challenges and that's something that I'm very aware I need to address. But we talk about and he, he, doesn't like feeling fat and we talk about it's actually about being healthy, not about being fat or skinny.

Sam Ebblewhite:

But I noticed at school you know, I was the same when, when you went to school, when we grew up, there was a small amount of kids that were overweight or obese, and now it's actually the other way, um, where, you know, unfortunately, obesity has almost become the new normal, and I'm very much of the same opinion as you that our worth is not based on the way we look or our weight. But I do think that health has got to be a component. You know, are you eating well? Are you, you know, feeding your body what it needs to survive? Um, are you moving or exercising, and I actually think this is a self-care and a self-love exercise, um. And I think we've just got to the point where, in this view, to accept all um and in this politically correct world, where you actually can't question people's choices and behaviours, I do think we've gone a little bit too far the other way and health has been forgotten.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and also to call what some of these people are doing to their bodies, like they refer to it, as self-love. To be eating all this garbage and really abusing your body isn't self-love, it's just not. So there's a difference and I'm not saying we all have to be perfect or anything like that. And you know, I exercise and I eat really well and sometimes I eat chocolates and other things as well, but largely I look after myself. But if I was, you know, eating crap all day, every day, that's not self-love. That's actually sabotaging myself, right? Uh, it's actually actively damaging myself. So some of these sort of uh, people who are famous for this and there's even youtube accounts where people eat them, eating themselves to death, with people cheering them on it's just warped stuff. Yeah, calling some of that self-love and sort of owning it is you know you go girl and this kind of that's a whole other level.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yeah, and I think there's a large amount of denial about where a lot of that stuff's coming from.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I think I don't believe some of these choices come from a healthy place, and I think that's where the challenge and I don't say that from a place of judgment, I say it from a place of observation and a place of someone who, you know, has worked through this and I know when my mental health is not good, I am looking for things to put butter on.

Sam Ebblewhite:

You know it's, it's one of my resources, it's one of my ways of of, um, checking out a little bit or, you know, letting go when, when I'm in overwhelm, and so I I I do think that that there are emotional and mental components to this that are not self-love, unfortunately, and I think we've come to this place where I don't want people to be fat shamed and I don't want people, um, you know, to be treated badly if they're not healthy, but I do want them to accept that they're not healthy and, when they're ready, maybe be supported to make the changes that they need to make, to to love themselves and support their body in the way that our bodies are built to be supported yeah, yeah, look, it's not any healthier than the kate moss thing, no.

Fiona Kane:

And so one extreme or the other extreme, it's it's health. And I think that it's weird because we're normalizing what our class is to be disorders and problems and things that aren't healthy and then we're kind of we're pathologizing other things. It's weird. This world has sort of got a bit weird.

Fiona Kane:

But yeah, it's not a disrespect to anyone or a judgment to anyone at all. I've got my struggles, we've all have our struggles. It's just saying that and it's not saying that someone who is in that sort of you know like, say, someone like Lizzo or whoever it is. It's not saying that that person should feel ashamed or be shamed or any of that. It's just saying that you know that's not healthy and you can have compassion and support and all the rest of it, because I'm also aware I feel like a lot of look and there's like chemicals and there's our food system and there's all these the levels of things that have contributed to this. So it's sort of not one thing and also a lot of mental health issues and a lot of pushing our feelings down and we do it you know, there's socioeconomic factors too, and education, and if your parents don't know how to cook healthy food?

Sam Ebblewhite:

yes yeah, and we live in this world, unfortunately, where sometimes it's cheaper to buy crap than actually healthy food, and so I just think the system is inherently broken and we are setting people up for failure and not success, unfortunately.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, definitely, and I also think that the diet industry has contributed to it as well, and a lot of the dieting language and a lot of the language that we've all grown up with about fat being the worst thing you can be and blah, blah, blah, and so I understand that sort of pretty much the industry that I'm in, which is sort of nutrition and health.

Fiona Kane:

I understand that we contributed to this with some of our behavior in the industry. This with some of our behavior in the industry. Uh, however, the cure isn't to say, like, lizzo is a health kind of you know something to aim for. Uh, so it's like you can acknowledge that there's one thing is wrong, but don't go to the opposite thing. You know there's got to be balance in there somewhere. We're going to find a balance in there. I think people, I think a lot of people, because they're wholeheartedly rejecting diet culture, which I understand and which a big part of that I applaud. Uh, it's kind of now, yet it's one quite the opposite end, which also is quite unhealthy yeah, I can only hope.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I remember you know at school um doing legal studies and um a teacher talking about the. You know the pendulum effect, where it usually has to swing completely the other way before it can find a place in the middle. So I do hope that we find a place in the middle. But I definitely feel the same as you where we've gone from one extreme to the next.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Fiona Kane:

And then there's one other topic I wanted to touch on and I'm aware of time, we haven't got a lot of time but just you and I also, sort of before we started this recording here, we were talking a little bit about things like plastic surgery and basically the different things that we can, or some of us, do to make ourselves feel better, and I was sort of saying to you that I'm a little bit.

Fiona Kane:

Sort of part of me is like oh, I completely understand it and I understand why you know the Hollywood types would want to do things to their face, because when you see there's big giant everyone's got a big giant TV screen and when you see what your face looks like and now I'm sort of at the age of 53, starting to notice some different things about my body and my face or whatever that I think, oh okay, I'm kind of getting more and more why they do these surgeries and stuff. So part of me is kind of like I understand why and you go, girl, and do whatever is right for you. And another part of me is, oh my God, some of them look so ridiculous. What the hell? And why do they have to do that? So I'm a little bit. I'm not one way or the other, I'm sort of a little bit all over the place with how I feel about things like plastic surgeries, that kind of thing. What are your feelings about those kinds of things?

Sam Ebblewhite:

I'm a little bit the same as you. So I have actually had my boobs done. I did that about, maybe must be about 13 years ago, and it was the best 10 grand I've ever spent. Um, and I've also had Botox. Um, and look, I use good skincare and I take care of myself. Um, and so for me, I think it's got to be about you and you do it for you. Um, about you and you do it for you.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Um, so for me, it had been something. Particularly my breast augmentation had been something I'd thought about for a long time. Um, I'd already had two of my three children, um, so, um, um, I'm not a petite little flower and I didn't feel like my breasts were in proportion to my body. Um, I didn't like the shape of my breasts as well, so it wasn't till I went and saw a surgeon that I actually realized, um, I had a condition called tubular condition. It was a they called it tubular breast, so I didn't have a lot of breast tissue, particularly underneath my nipples, so my breasts were not a nice shape. Um, and so when I had my surgery, um, my surgeon unfortunately, god love him has passed away, but he was this beautiful older man that was very well known for matching implants in women so that their bodies were in proportion, and it was very well done. You know, I've had a midwife who didn't even feel the implants. So I try to enhance myself whilst looking natural, and that's my choice.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I worry about men and women who make choices based on trends and based on trying to change the way they look for another person, or even change the way they look because they don't feel good enough. Um, I think that is a slippery slope to to travel down. So, um, I'm a bit like you where I have a foot in each camp. You know we were laughing before we started the recording about, you know, the duck lip phase, and I worry about young girls having surgery. I have a 20-year-old daughter and you know she's joked about baby Botox and getting her lips done. I didn't start to have surgery so, so I would have been 30 in my 30s when I had my boobs done and I didn't have Botox till 40.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I feel like if we start messing with ourselves too early, it just becomes a never ending process. But but I do acknowledge that you know people have the right to do what they want to their bodies, but I think sometimes people don't think about what they're doing. So, you know, botox is injecting yourself with botulism, and I think you need to be real about that and you are paralyzing muscles in your face and you can't make choices like that without an impact. You know, when you're putting filler in your body, you're putting a foreign body into your system. So I just I think people need to think about why they're making the choice, not necessarily that they don't need to do it. If it's what they really want, I think people have the right to make that choice.

Sam Ebblewhite:

But for me it's always been about who am I doing this for? Why am I doing it? You know, am I trying to address something that probably needs some psychological assessment? And, and you know, I think even with my breast surgery and my Botox, I am very aware to look at, you know, my body image and my thoughts and where is this coming from? And I think, if you take these procedures with a more holistic view, you know, looking at what am I doing to my body, you know what are the risks, what are the potential benefits, why am I doing doing it? I think then you're a little bit more informed when you make the choice. Um, because there's always risk things can go wrong. Um, and you know, I've talked to my daughter about you know, procedures and things like that.

Sam Ebblewhite:

And I'm like you know what happens if you do something at 20 and it goes wrong and then you end up worse isn't the right word. But you know, disfigured at a young age because you made a choice, trying to make yourself look better. Are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to live with the potential consequences? And if you are, then you know, then go ahead and do it. But if you haven't even kind of thought those things through, I think you're playing with fire.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, definitely, and I have had clients have been sort of poisoned by their breast surgery and things like that. So I think you do, you have to take these things, surgery, these things seriously. They're serious surgeries. And I think the people who go off and do cheap surgeries overseas or they get this Brazilian butt lifts and things that those fad things that make you look like some sort of cartoon character, I don't know, um and and what I've noticed today too, apparently, when people go to the plastic surgeon, you know we used to take pictures of our favorite movie star or model or whatever it was, but now they're taking, like AI, pictures of themselves.

Fiona Kane:

I didn't know that yeah, so they uh, so they're trying to, or and all the other thing they're trying to do is it's sort of a crossover thing, but look like a lot of those Japanese anime kind of things, and so they're actually trying to look like non-human.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yeah, Barbie dolls or things like that, and look, I actually do think there is a duty of care with surgeons as well, and I think there is very responsible surgeons, but I do think there is very responsible surgeons, but I do think there are surgeons that are not responsible and I do think there's times where they need to actually be like hang on a second. I think you need to think about this. This is not coming from a healthy place, but I think you know, just doing your due diligence. I worry about things like the fads, like the Brazilian butt lift, and because you know you do a surgical procedure and then the fad changes and that's actually not the desired look, and then you've got to live with this, and I think that those kinds of things are a slippery slope.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, you know, and, like we said before, you know we had sort of Kate Moss, the sort of of bone stick figure, and now it's the kind of Kardashian look, and in another five or ten years it's going to be whatever look that's going to be.

Fiona Kane:

And, yeah, I think that surgeries and those kinds of things like I'm not completely against them, and I do know people who've benefited and really glad that they've done it.

Fiona Kane:

I also know people who regret it very much, and I do agree with you, though, that, unless there's something really, really wrong for young women to get started, or young people in general, I think it's not a good idea to start interfering with your face, and what I've noticed is the stars that you see who start interfering with their face at a really young age. They start looking really strange by the time they get to our age, and so I think the later you start, the more you're going to keep with a relatively natural look, but when you start earlier, it seems to be, and also there's a go back to sort of me when I was like a size 6, or you know, you and we talk about the fact that we've still got these voices in our head. So you and we talk about the fact that we've still got these voices in our head. I don't think there's a surgery that is going to completely cure anybody's image about their body. It might enhance it or help you. It might do the opposite.

Sam Ebblewhite:

It could go either way, I think if you don't address the voice and the underlying causes of the voice, the surgeries can actually almost make it worse, because I think you just get more hypercritical about what's going on and then you notice other things that you want to correct.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, exactly Because it's not a magic cure. And, like you said, once you get into that mode of looking at yourself the way a surgeon looks at someone's face or looks at someone's oh this could be there and that could be there there's a whole bunch of things that you would have never thought about. And now that you're sitting in a surgeon's office and you're seeing all these pictures or you're going whatever, going through their catalogs, or you're just with someone who you're paying to kind of judge the way you look, yeah, you start thinking about things in a way you never have before, and about things in a way you never have before. And then you see the people you know, even the people like you know Michael Jackson when he was alive, and people who just don't seem to have a that they can't stop no matter how much damage they're doing to themselves, no matter how much they've made themselves look like an alien or whatever, they can't stop and that's not healthy.

Fiona Kane:

So, yeah, I think it's one of those things. That's like a lot of things. There's a lot of tools that you could use to support and enhance the way you look, but they don't fix your, fix your mental health correct not a magic cure and they do have to be considered very carefully. Um, and the same would be said for my same concern for surgeries that we're doing to, uh, minors now in regards to sex reassignment, that kind of thing. When you look at the data, it says that puberty is the cure for most people with a lot of these issues, and so not allowing people to go through a natural puberty or doing surgeries at those ages I actually think is very damaging and not helpful at all.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I agree with you on that too. So I'm very. I do believe that there are people that, genetically or whatever, are conceivably born into the wrong bodies, but I don't believe there's rush to make intervention. So, you know, live as whatever gender you wish to live as, but leave your biology until you're at a stage where you can make an informed choice. Yes, you know, let your body stop growing before you make a drastic change, because there's terrible stories about people that you know went on hormone blockers and had surgery and then got to adulthood and actually have changed their mind.

Sam Ebblewhite:

And I just think, if this is truly what you want, there is no rush. You have the time to take. To be sure, this is the decision you want to make. We mentioned before, you know, once upon a time, these processes took a really, really long time. You had to go through a certain amount of psychological work before you were even allowed to go on any hormone treatment. Then you had to be on hormones for a period of time before you were actually allowed to have any surgery, and now everything's been sped up and I actually think, um, there is no rush. You know, you, you can make these changes and you can live as you like, um, but when you make these drastic biological changes, there's no going back, so I don't think they should be rushed.

Fiona Kane:

No, no, and I've done a fair deep dive into this and I personally do believe that, particularly with girls who want to transition to be boys, there is a real social contagion around this.

Fiona Kane:

Many of them have, you know, either autism or they've got some sort of neuro spicy thing going on, and many of them have had some sort of sexual assault or some other that you know. There's other issues that are causing them to feel that way and, uh, and that's not being addressed and and it's just like, oh yes, they're all in the wrong body and I think there's been like a 3000% increase with girls and it's very clear when you look at the trends. Girls are very much affected by social contagion and I personally think this is one of them. Not saying there's no legit people who really feel that way, all the rest of it, but I think there is a huge social contagion element and there are many thousands of detransitionists and I think there'll be many more. And, yes, I just don't think it's a good idea when you're that young hey look, I'm still figuring out my body and selling into my body and figuring it all out and I'm 53. I just don't think, you know, when you're 12.

Sam Ebblewhite:

I just think there's no rush. I think there are steps that you can take that enable you to live that way that you know when you're battling, you know it's not perfect, you know you can band your breasts and you can do things like that. But it gives you time to sort through it. It gives time for hormones to settle down, you know, process your feelings and work out what's really going on before you start interfering with your hormones, because that hormone therapy can be taken at any time. It's not going to stop your ability to transition if you choose later on, but if you transition early and it turns out it was not the right thing, the impact of that is there's no going back.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, wait till you're grown up. Puberty cures this situation in most cases, and if it doesn't, like you said, when you're an adult, you can address that. I'm hyper aware of time, so just before we go, though, is there anything else in regards to this sort of whole topic that you would like to add that you think would be useful, or do you feel like we've covered it fairly thoroughly?

Sam Ebblewhite:

I think we've covered lots of things, but it's a bit like the mental health topic. You and I are both very passionate about this. So, I suppose I would just say if anyone has any questions to reach out to either of us, so we'll put my details in the show notes.

Fiona Kane:

And what's the best place will be the show notes. But what's the best place for people to get in contact with you, or best way?

Sam Ebblewhite:

Look, probably easiest is social media, although I'm always um fabulous at updating things, but my Instagram and Facebook is sam ebelwhite ss, so for somatic sexology, um, and my website is sam ebelwhitecomau, so, um, they're the easiest ways to kind of reach out and contact me. Um, I'm more than happy if people have questions. Probably via social media is the easiest way, but it's definitely an area that I'm very passionate about and so more than happy to talk with people about it.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and if you're having these issues, you're not alone. They are really really common. I've talked to thousands of women, and I'm sure you've talked to many, many people as well, and it's just really really common. So just know that there's nothing terribly wrong with you. We're human and we're living a human life and this is part of it. And yeah, ask for help. And yeah, ask for help. You don't have to do this alone.

Sam Ebblewhite:

That's right. But know that if there's something that you're not happy with about your life, you actually have the power to make changes too. You don't have to sit in that unhappiness. There are healthy ways and healthy steps you can take to rewrite those stories that don't serve you.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. I think the theme for this with you and I that we've discussed is that any physical changes, you do need the emotional changes to go with it. You need to sort of fix up here, fix your mind as well, not just looking at changing your body, because the two go together.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Yeah, embodied approach, mind, body, spirit. It's got to be holistic. One won't fix the other.

Fiona Kane:

No, no, so look. Thank you so much for coming on today and being so honest. I really appreciate your experience and your wisdom.

Sam Ebblewhite:

Thank you so much. I love chatting. We're very in line with what we think and I'm having lots of fun with you. So thank you so much.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, thank you, I'm really enjoying it, and thank you for everyone at home who is watching or listening. Can you please like you? Please like, subscribe, share, tell other people about this podcast so I get a bit more traction. I'd really appreciate that. And um and uh, you know, this is a podcast where we have real conversations about things that matter, so see you all next week. Thanks, bye.

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