The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane

Episode 86 From Honeymoon to Reality: Managing Conflict in Relationships

• Fiona Kane • Season 1 • Episode 86

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Ever wondered why the blissful 'honeymoon phase' in relationships doesn't last forever? Join us for a fascinating discussion with Melissa Ferrari, an experienced psychotherapist, as we uncover the intricate transition from romance to reality in long-term partnerships. You'll discover how this pivotal phase offers a crucial choice: to work on personal and relational growth or to fall into the trap of blaming your partner.

Melissa sheds light on how unresolved familial patterns can add psychological layers to relationships, providing a deeper understanding of the dynamics at play. As relationships evolve, so do the unconscious patterns and expectations that couples build over time. In this episode, we explore how these habits can sometimes turn partners into burdens, and why acknowledging this is essential for a healthier marriage.  Communication is the cornerstone of any relationship, and we dive into how empathetic dialogue can transform your partnership. Tune in as Fiona has some aha moments and learn some strategies that can begin to build a stronger relationship.

Melissa Ferrari is a qualified counsellor and psychotherapist with over 25 years of experience in couples counselling, refugee/migrant counselling, and individual psychotherapy. Fully certified and specialising in the Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy (PACT), providing intensive sessions with practical, personalised feedback, through which she helps individuals and couples to make savvy relationship choices. Melissa has a strong media presence in Australia and for the past 10 years has held regular spots on The Today Show, Today Extra, ABC Radio and now with her column in The Courier-Mail she discusses relationships and how to create secure and solid connections. Interest areas are trauma, neuroscience, attachment and arousal regulation in couples and the brain in love. Melissa is passionate about creating consistent standards in Australia, particularly in couples therapy.

Couples Resources https://www.thepactinstitute.com/for-couples

The PACT Institute Blog Couples - https://www.thepactinstitute.com/blog

7 Days to Better Fights https://www.thepactinstitute.com/7-days-to-better-fights

Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/

Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/

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Credit for the music used in this podcast:

The Beat of Nature

Music by Olexy from Pixabay



Fiona Kane:

Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane. I'm your host, iona Kane, and I'm excited to tell you that today I have a guest who's going to be talking to me about conflict management. Her name is Melissa Ferrari. Hi.

Melissa Ferrari:

Melissa, how are you going? Hi Fiona and hi everybody.

Fiona Kane:

So for those who don't know you maybe haven't seen you on the telly- tell us a little bit about you, okay.

Melissa Ferrari:

So I'm a psychotherapist and couple therapist and I've been doing that for 25 years. I am trained and certified in the approach to couple therapy called pact, which is the psycho-biological approach to couple therapy. I'm very proud to say that I've studied 12 years to finally get accredited in that work and I see people in my practice either online or actually in person. So I do individual psychotherapy as well as couples, but mainly my area is around couples and relationships. And yeah, I do do a bit of media as well. I'm on Channel 9's Today Extra and ABC and other things where you might find me in the media, sort of sprinkled throughout.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, so for anyone who's wondering, I've seen her before. That is where she pops up all around in the media and so, look, I'm really pleased to have you here today. Thank you so much for giving me your valuable time.

Melissa Ferrari:

Thanks, Fiona. Thanks for asking me. It's been a long time coming.

Fiona Kane:

So okay. So managing conflict is a challenging thing, and I suppose it ties into relationships in general. So I might just start a little bit by talking about relationships and I might start by just asking you a bit about marriage. I know there's all different relationships, but it's one that you and I are both interested in. Now I'm going to give you a bit about my theory, something to do with marriage, and you can tell me with all your years of knowledge how wrong I am or how right I am or whatever. So I've been with my husband for 34 years and what I think happens now there's a few caveats to this right, because essentially, for a relationship to work, you've got to have the two people there who both want it to work and who are both being honest, and so there's obviously just a general kind of people are there for the right reason, then they, they want to, they want to be there, kind of stuff. So assuming that first.

Fiona Kane:

But what I think happens in relationships is, I think that in the beginning of a relationship, we, when we look at each other, when we look at each other's eyes, we see a reflection back of how wonderful we are, because it's the honeymoon phase and it's like how wonderful we are, I'm so great, I'm so wonderful. Over time, when that wears off, what we start to see is a reflection back of a little bit more of a real version of ourselves, or maybe all those of our flaws, or you know just how disappointing we might be, or whatever it is. We start seeing a reflection of that, and I think that that is when what happens is we either, if we have some sort of, if we have some knowledge of ourselves and some willingness to understand these things, we can kind of do some work of ourselves and some willingness to understand these things, we can kind of do some work on ourselves and on our relationship and understand that there's something we can do about it. Or if we kind of don't want to go there and we're not willing to do that, then what we do is we, straight away, we label the other person a bad person. Well, he's a so-and-so. She's a so-and-so because of the way they start looking at us.

Fiona Kane:

So I think that once we start having that, once a person starts looking at you and reflecting yourself back to you, there's kind of a choice to make. So it's either am I going to do something about this and learn something about this. Or am I going to blame them for what I'm seeing now? Am I completely? Did I just make up a completely unspoken statement?

Melissa Ferrari:

or have I proven that? No, I think you're spot on because it's true, in the beginning there's that real cocktail. You know it's dopamine rich and oxytocin and all the other hormones that are there that have all got very big names. You know that can be there and you know it's even been compared to being on cocaine. That's how strong that feeling is. And so you've actually got, you know there's a lot of positivity going on. You know You've got all the positivity of the hormones and you're feeling good about yourself. You're feeling a vibrance Some people call it aliveness, you know, and especially when you're with that person, right, and so that period I always say normally goes, look, I'd say, 18 months to about three years.

Melissa Ferrari:

Some people extend it out to about four. Right, and that's where you don't need any help. You've got great props and you feel like you're really good at relationship and you do feel like you know I am a great person and I can do this. But then, as those hormones start to go and they do drop off over time, we then have to deal with the realness of not only who we are, but who they are as well. Right, and this stage is where people run into problems, and some people could even say I'm not in love anymore. You know, maybe I chose wrongly.

Melissa Ferrari:

You know, as you say, they start to blame the other. Some people start to come up with a diagnosis for their partner. You know all of that kind of stuff, calling them something even, and you're this and you're that. That's not uncommon, right, and the reality is we're all shaped psychologically in relationships, both positively and negatively. Right, but the thing about the primary relationship, which is you and your partner, or what we call your new family, is that you've left your family of origin, but we do reenact stuff from the past with that primary attachment person. I would say nobody gets away from doing that. And what's interesting is we will be attracted to a person, or end up with a person that we unconsciously may believe will heal some of those old wounds, and when you think about that, that's all very powerful, isn't it? It's like I've found my person. I bring trauma, I bring stuff that needs to be healed and this is going to be the person that's going to do it, right?

Fiona Kane:

Yes, this person is going to complete me, complete that challenge. You complete me Exactly.

Melissa Ferrari:

And it feels like that in the beginning.

Melissa Ferrari:

But what is important here is that you actually can keep that relationship alive and still feel those hits of the dopamine and the oxytocin and all of that exciting, those exciting hormones. You can get that, but you've got to do it consciously before. It was happening unconsciously, and interestingly enough, it does happen through gaze and and and those kind of exchanges. Um, that does excite the nervous system and says, ah, this person is wonderful and I'm wonderful and all of those things that you described so well. And so I think what happens is, um, that we then have learned we have to deal with someone and what the brain does is it starts to automate that person, meaning they're predictable. Now, I know what they're going to say, I know what they're going to do if I bring up this argument or this issue, and how they're going to react. They're going to avoid, they're going to fight, they're going to do all of those things that we do in human nature. And so things start to go a bit pear-shaped, because we decide our partner's predictable because we've known them long enough, right, and this creates problems, because we all start to act with each other in ways we anticipate it's going to be because it's been that way in the past, or we think we know our partner.

Melissa Ferrari:

So what do we do? We stop asking questions. We stop doing things like, hey, I just moved all your bundle of newspapers that you so lovingly have kept there for however many months and I've put them in a cupboard or I've placed them over there, right, and then you know your partner will react in whatever way, that is, probably be upset about it and and all those kind of things, and you've probably predicted that that's how they are going to respond. And so then you respond in a certain way as well, and what has stopped there is that presence and that deliberate way of being where you might say I want to move your newspapers. I know you're probably not going to be happy about that, but I'm a bit tired of seeing them here.

Melissa Ferrari:

This pile magazines, whatever. We don't have newspapers nowadays, but you always do. You know it's kind of but and um, but that kind of um. You know deliberateness of actually asking a question, consciousness, awareness, mindfulness, right, we stop doing that because it's like I know I know you, you know you're fairly predictable, which is lovely and it feels all safe and secure. That's the beauty of a long term relationship. But it also creates problems because we stop being curious, we stop that mindfulness and that anticipation, because you're my person and you'll be there tomorrow.

Fiona Kane:

Anyway, yeah, and do we just sort of? I think we play out the same thing over and over again. So, whether it's about the newspapers or whether it's about whatever it's, we kind of play this, play the same game every time, or play the same roles every time we do, we do and what we've probably done is projected our parents, our siblings um past caregivers onto our partner.

Melissa Ferrari:

If we grew up with a father that got angry easily, right, we can project that onto our partner because you've seen them get angry once or twice and it's upset you, right, and so that becomes the narrative yeah, and why does this happen?

Melissa Ferrari:

It's because life's too fast, everything's too fast, and all of this stuff is happening. We're looking at facial expressions, we're hearing voice tone, little jerky movements all of these things that are all happening in the unconscious. That's made us decide maybe this person's not safe. Maybe they are. They are dangerous, like my, my father used to be, and so we are more primed, really, to fight than love, because if we didn't have that inbuilt system to protect ourselves, we wouldn't make it right. And then what couples do is they start to use that more primitive brain of scanning the environment for whether it's safe or not, and then, the next thing you know, you're in a fight.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, the same thing would happen, I would think, if maybe you'd been abandoned before yes, so whether by your father or whoever it is in your life, you're another partner. But if you've had abandonment, that maybe when you start to feel like things are off kilter, then maybe you start to withdraw or you start to push the person away. Would that be the sort of thing you might say? Yeah.

Melissa Ferrari:

If you're scared that your partner will abandon you because you bring up the newspapers, let's say you know you'll not bring it up, but what will happen to you internally will be resentment. You'll pull away because you're starting to feel like you know, I can't. These newspapers are sitting here, you're not doing anything about it, your partner doesn't even know it's bothering you, right? And so, without that actual conversation or something that brings attention to the relationship where we can actually regulate each other around this kind of stuff, a couple system we co-regulate that. It happens in relationships of parent to child, how we help a child when they're distressed. When we help a child by maybe sometimes filling in the blanks and wondering what's going on for them, right? That kind of dynamic also shows up in romantic relationships. Now, I'm not saying it's parent-child, because it's not, it's adult to adult. You know parent-child relationships are unconditional. Adult to adult need to have conditions, right, it's a little bit different, but those same experiences that happen between a child and an adult does happen in romantic relationships, because you're my person and so all of that old stuff comes up. It's like little things, you know.

Melissa Ferrari:

When I work with couples I ask who goes to bed first, and so I do, and I stay up with the computer or I watch movies and all of that. And so my question is do you put your partner to bed when they go to bed? Do you put them to bed? Do you tuck them, partner, to bed when they go to bed? Do you put them to bed? Do you tuck them in? Right, and the reason for that is because of regulation we want our night to end well, so if we're leaving each other, let's make sure that we do that in a way, because you're going off into your unconscious asleep, just like kids do, right? That's why kids play up at bedtime because they're leaving mum and dad. It's the same in romantic relationships.

Fiona Kane:

So what do I do if my hubby's falling asleep on the lounge? Do I wake him up and take him to bed, or do I leave him there?

Melissa Ferrari:

Well, you let him know If you two are having problems. If that's happening around dysregulation before bed, you two might be absolutely fine with it and might greet each other really well in the morning and all is okay. But bedtime and waking up time with couples are really really important times and they're the great times to put some buffer in where you're getting it right, because it'll help conflict go better. When something does come up, you know you might not need to be tucked in. You're okay. You've had this dynamic for 34 years and it works for you and that's okay. But it's something that you maybe could talk to him about before he sleeps on the lounge. Can he say goodnight in some way?

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, it's funny the things that when you talk to couples about the habits that they get into and, like you were saying before, these are just things we stop asking questions, we get into set habits and we just do them and they may or may not work for you, but it's interesting to sort of stop and think about it, it is.

Melissa Ferrari:

It is, and that's what couples don't get the time to do Therapy. Couple therapy is really just slowing things down. Couple therapy is really just slowing things down. Okay, you're paying for time to slow things down because life goes so fast. You know, particularly people with jobs, children's mortgages, stress, sick parents all of the things that go on that you know in in the world is getting harder by the minute for many. Right? Is that not having that opportunity to slow down and actually address some of these unconscious niggles, these unconscious annoyances? You know we are burdens to each other. Sometimes, really, it's kind of what you sign up for. I sometimes think it should be in the marriage vows. I take you as my burden because you can be pretty sure your partner's going to be a pain at some stage, for sure, because we're human and we're annoying. Really we're annoying to each other.

Fiona Kane:

We are no, not me, of course. Not you, not me, Not everybody else, not us, not me.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, ask my husband, you might say something slightly different just like but I have a question around so, oh, now it's just dropped out of my head and I was just thinking about if, uh, one thing I see a lot of now and I think sometimes, you know, things go a bit crazy is that I think that sometimes women sort of pathologize men in a way, or they want to label them or give them some like you were talking about names before. Oh, he's a narcissist, he's this, he's that, and we want men to do the therapy, do this, do that and speak the language. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with doing the therapy. Of course it's worthwhile doing it. I've got no issue with that and I'm sure you're well, you're very successful, you're wonderful at what you do.

Fiona Kane:

The question is, at what point are we just? At what point do we accept someone for, like you know, like you said, the habits, the annoying things, whatever. At what point do we do we accept people are who they are and because there's a balance right, because there's, obviously we all could grow and learn and, you know, be better in a relationship and be better human beings. So I believe in growth and supporting each other for growth, but also there's a certain point where let the person be who they are as well. So how do we balance that? Where we, where we allow someone to be themselves, help help them grow, help them be maybe a better version of themselves. But there's this whole. What I see sometimes women do is they kind of turn their man into a project that needs to be fixed.

Fiona Kane:

And if he's a project that needs to be fixed, why are you in that relationship? You know what I mean. Like there's a balance there somewhere and maybe you can speak to that.

Melissa Ferrari:

Okay. So we're all in things with self-interest, right. We're in relationships, we're in jobs. We're all motivated by self-interest, unfortunately, or fortunately. That's just the way it is right. So so in that case, you've kind of got to find out that you're both interested in the same thing. Are you both interested in creating a secure, functioning relationship where we have each other's back, where we attend to things? If one of us is distressed, if your partner is distressed, it's a really good idea to make it your business. Yes, right, because if they go down, you go down too. That's human nature. We just kind of follow yes, unless we decide to disconnect, which is going to create a different problem anyway. So this kind of comes back to agreements. What are we in this for? What are you in this relationship for?

Melissa Ferrari:

And people can't just say love. The reason why they can't say love is because love is fickle. Yes, we're in love today, or maybe not so in love tomorrow because of the annoyances. Yes. So if you're with someone who, for whatever if it is their pathology or whatever it is is consistently not showing up in the relationship and are not interested in the same thing as you are, which is safety and security, you being my person, that person that will be there if you're in, if you're at a family funeral or if you're in trouble with the bank or you know you. You've done something that you need help with the person who has your back exactly.

Melissa Ferrari:

Yeah, friends can say, oh, I'm sorry, I couldn't make it to your mom's funeral, I couldn't come and see you in a hospital, right, but your partner partner wouldn't be wise to be doing that, right. So it makes it a different relationship, doesn't it? You've kind of got a deal we're in this because I will do for you what others won't do. Right, and having a deliberate conversation about that of why are we in this, if somebody's in it? Because people are in a relationship for all kinds of reasons you want it to be because they both want security and longevity and love and passion and connection and having each other's back. But let's face it, some people in a relationship is because they want someone there that makes dinner every night and goes and earns money. Right, they're not really interested in what you're interested in, which is something else. Yes, then you've got a problem.

Fiona Kane:

Which is probably why it's a good idea to have some of these conversations before you get married, maybe. So you had a bit of it and do you do that as well. Like, is that one of the sort of things that you would recommend, that people, when they're planning to get married, when they're engaged or whatever, go and sort of have some, you know, pre-marriage sort of therapy, I suppose, just to kind of figure out what those? Why? Are you in it?

Melissa Ferrari:

just to make sure you're both in it, for, yeah, people do it and it's great. You know, it's like, and I say to people why together? And they always say love, and it's like, no, no, forget love for now, because love is fickle and it'll change and you really do need to have an agreement as to why are you doing this. Why are you getting married? You know what reasons are behind that and if you're not on the same page as to why you're getting married, some people are getting married because they want to build wealth. Yes, you know there's, there's many reasons why, but if you're going to marry someone or you're going to bring someone into your world, we have a responsibility to um check that we're on the same page around what we're doing.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, I've seen it happen in a relationship where a couple were together for 10 years and they were living de facto most of that time, I think, and they got married and they got divorced within six months. And it was because, I think, he thought that when they got married they were going to have children and he had this whole idea of what it was going to look like we're going to finally settle down properly.

Fiona Kane:

He had this whole idea of what it was going to look like we're going to finally settle down properly and you know, whatever be a family, and she thought that it just was a confirmation of what they were already doing, right? So hers was like we're just going to keep doing this, we're just going to be married. And his was we're going to get married and everything's going to change, because now we're going to do this other thing. It's like, wow, that would have been a good conversation to have before you got married.

Melissa Ferrari:

It's amazing how many people don't have it. You know those kind of yeah, those questions around what are you expecting? You know, and this is what I'm expecting, and I really encourage people to use a therapist to do it, even if it's a couple of sessions. You know, just to make sure we're all on the same page as to why we're doing this, and staying in the context of what we're talking about around conflict, you know, if people have gone in with two different agendas, that is going to create conflict.

Melissa Ferrari:

Sometimes conflict isn't just about what we're arguing about or what we're discussing. It's actually fueled by decisions made where we aren't aligned, you know, and and the problem with it is because we're innately selfish. We want what we want. We want what we want, right, but we also want to be in love. We want to pair bond. That's a dilemma. Yes, we want what we want, but I've got to live with somebody or be with somebody and help them get what they want too. And so, you know, in pack therapy, we kind of have an idea. You know, in pack therapy, we kind of have an idea. You know, relationships are hard and the reason why we say that is not just to, you know, advertise ourselves as couple therapists or whatever it's, because relationships they're really, really hard.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, they really are and you really have to. In my experience is you have to want to be there and you have to be opting in and you have to be continually opting in. You don't just opt in once.

Melissa Ferrari:

You have to opt in over and over again. Yeah, a choosing. I choose to be in this relationship, yes, and I choose you as my person and together we've got a responsibility to each other in that and unless that's understood, people will run into problems.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah for sure. So say, a couple's been together for a few years and the honeymoon period starts wearing off, and they start, you know, the honeymoon period starts wearing off and they start kind of looking at each other and not quite sure what to do with this situation. Obviously you would recommend therapy, but the question would be, what are maybe some of the things, the actions they can start to take at that point, if they've kind of realized that they're heading down a wrong road or things aren't working out? Besides, obviously, getting help just within the relationship, are there questions they can start asking themselves or each other, or some actions they can begin to take on their own?

Melissa Ferrari:

It's a great question, and one of them does come back to the agreements. It's like, you know, we got married or we got together or we moved in or we had a baby. All of that was a whirlwind and it was all so quick and it was fuelled by love and passion and I wanted you to be my person, all of that kind of stuff. But here we are now and we're a few years down the track. You could say to your partner you know, can we revisit what we're doing? Why are we here together now? What do we both want? Are we on the same page around? What's important? Is the relationship first or is something else first? So couples probably need to agree that something's first. I always encourage the relationship being first. Or I say to people if you want to put kids first or your jobs first, at least agree on that.

Fiona Kane:

Yes. So just looking at what your values are, yeah, because people might say what their values are, but their values are kind of what they do. So you might say your relationship's your value, but if you don't put any time or energy into it, then it's not one of your values.

Melissa Ferrari:

Because there's something competing with it. If your job or the gym, or alcohol or drugs or something else is more important, right, that's not holding values, that's not about values. That's not about values. That's about wanting you to want to do what you want. Yes, right, really. And the thing is you're with somebody and so you've chosen to be in relationship rather than stay out of it and do whatever you want, because if you stay, out of it go ahead.

Melissa Ferrari:

But when you bring somebody in, it's a different responsibility. So, I think, sitting down and making agreements, why are we doing this? Do you want the same as me? Are we together because we want to grow old together and have each other's back and be each other's person? Are we together because we both want it? We know life's hard and it's stressful, but we want to travel in a way where we have each other's back, where I will respond if you're distressed. Are we together because we want the safety and security of being a couple rather than being out in the world on our own, which, for many, doesn't look good?

Melissa Ferrari:

We've heard lots of Tinder stories and horror stories around. You know, trying to find the right one. Yes, people in a relationship have got the gold of, they've already found their person. But revisiting why we're doing it is going to stop a whole lot of conflicts, because if you're on a different page as to is the relationship first, why are we here? You know, if one of the relationships first and the other one is kids first, they're competing values. Yes, they're going to compete with the relationship and I always say, of course, kids are way up there. There's reasons compete with the relationship and and I always say, of course kids are way up there. There's reasons for making the relationship first, and that's because it's going to be really good for your kids yeah, yeah, no.

Fiona Kane:

If your relationship's not doing well, it's not helpful for your children at all, is it no?

Melissa Ferrari:

no. So so to just stay with your question, because I know I could go off track around, what do you do is revisit agreements and do that in an empathic way. We've had a wonderful life, the whirlwind, all of that because most people don't do it in a whirlwind, you know. That's kind of how it goes, but I just want to slow down now and do it face-to-face, so that you can be watching what's going on for your partner with what you're saying and that this person. You know you mean a lot to me and our relationship means a lot to me, and I know what I want. But I want to make sure you want the same thing, so that we're travelling through life and the rest of our lives with the same idea as to why we're doing this.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and it's really listening too, isn't it? It's not saying but, but, but as they're trying to say it, it's actually kind of just letting them say what it is.

Melissa Ferrari:

Yeah.

Fiona Kane:

Even if it's not what you want to hear, just letting them say what it is.

Melissa Ferrari:

Because if you don't let them, this will linger. It will be there as an undercurrent, eroding the relationship if you're not in it for the same reasons. And so you know, as I said, staying with the theme of conflict, conflict will happen if you've both got different ideas around what we're doing here, you know, because you really are not on the same page and you haven't made a decision. Why are we here? We're here because I want to have that person that has my back, where I feel safe and secure. That, I know, is navigating life, um, in a way that values both of us, where we don't get into trouble. You know, in life we can get into trouble for things easily, quickly, right, that you know you are the person that will say to me hey, I don't know, that's good for both of us. The behavior you're doing right now, yeah, so, um, it does happen. You're right, fiona.

Melissa Ferrari:

People do decide my partner's something wrong with them, there's something wrong with them and maybe I need. I need to leave and all of that kind of stuff. It goes deeper than that and it takes curiosity to ask the right questions. One thing I say to people you know you want to fix things If you do one thing and be curious. Curiosity, yeah. Rather than assume label blame, withdraw resent fight yeah. Try curiosity and ask some questions.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, because whatever that person's doing if they're gambling or if they're out with their mates or whatever they're doing it's not going to get better with you, just like you said, labelling them or shaming them for it or whatever. That kind of stuff isn't going to be helpful. But being curious, okay, I notice this is something you're doing a lot of. What would you say? Can you tell me more about it? Or why are you spending so much time? What's a way to say it that's not judgmental? You mean a lot.

Melissa Ferrari:

To me, that's a great start, because what you're doing is you're setting up their nervous system positively, because we're co-regulating right.

Fiona Kane:

So you mean a lot to me is first Is first.

Melissa Ferrari:

You mean a lot to me, is first is first you mean a lot to me. You know I've chosen you for a reason because I want to spend my life with you. I've had children with you because you're such a remarkable person. You know, and and and. Set their nervous system up right, because if we start critically, they're going to go into hyperarousal or hypoarousal in their nervous system and they're either going to get angry or they're going to check out, right, okay. And so setting that up well before your delivery is really, really important, and remembering people who are criticised, shamed or put down will under-function.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, so it's not going to help.

Melissa Ferrari:

It's not going to.

Fiona Kane:

They're going to withdraw, or it's going to be an argument or whatever, but it's not going to achieve anything.

Melissa Ferrari:

No.

Fiona Kane:

And it's hard too because I've got different. I'm just saying, without going into too much detail, I don't want to give it away to my husband, but my husband and I are very different personalities and I can kind of just see all right because I'm a bit sort of I'm a bit straight into it and straight on and sort of more of a confrontational sort of a person and I'm sort of just picturing how well that works and even though we've made it for 34 years, just picturing how well it works and it doesn't really work well for me it for 34 years just picturing how well it worked and it doesn't really work well for me.

Melissa Ferrari:

Yeah, that's right, and what you might be talking about, there might not only be personality, but it's different attachment styles, and maybe we could do another podcast on that, because you know it's, if you're different in your attachment styles and the way you approach things, yes, um, it's going to get you into trouble if you, you know, I say to people the biggest thing, well, you know, one of the biggest things is know your partner's attachment style. Are they more avoided? Are they more anxious? You know, reflect on that and approach them or navigate them with that knowledge.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yes, yes. So it's knowing how to approach it. Yes, I think that might have to be another episode. The other thing that I think is quite useful you might be able to touch on a little bit now, or maybe we could go more into it next time as well, but would be, you know that we have different style. Now, what's the language for it? Now, that was just dropped out of my head again the different rewards that we like. What's the terminology for it? Like some people like touch, some people like gifts, some people, the love languages, love languages.

Melissa Ferrari:

It just dropped out of my head. I was like what's?

Fiona Kane:

it called. It was in my head and it dropped out and I know that sort of my love language is acts of service. So my husband, he cooks me dinner or he makes me breakfast or things like that. I love that Like to me that's the most romantic thing you could possibly do. Now I don't care about flowers or any of that, like, I just don't not interested, don't care. If you gave them to me I wouldn't refuse them, but I just don't feel the need for them and I don't value them that highly.

Melissa Ferrari:

It doesn't speak to you.

Fiona Kane:

No, if it's a choice between you know you're going to cook me a meal or give me a bunch of flowers, cook me the meal any time I could, just you know. If I can have both, great. But essentially I just the access service really does it for me. But that's not everybody's. You know, people have different love languages, don't they?

Melissa Ferrari:

They do, and you know, getting to know your partner's love language is a great thing because it does. You know, I find that men particularly like it. You know that they've got a set thing that they know works with their partner and I think that the love languages are great in that respect. I don't believe that they will heal everything, because it's more this co-regulation that's important, and being aware that you can really scare your partner quite quickly we're scaring each other all the time because of that, because of the amygdala or is always scanning the environment for safety. Yes, and you know, with the person you live with, you want to feel safe yeah, yeah, and it's that languaging that we're using with each other.

Fiona Kane:

I certainly have learned over the years. When I was younger, I was very combative and I saw that I think I had a moment one day where I had this out-of-body experience where I saw myself and it was really uncomfortable because I just did not like her. I did not like that. So I had that happen one time. And then another time my husband actually did feed back to me in no uncertain terms the way I was behaving and how he just wasn't going to like that's just not okay and it was. Both of those events were quite shocking and quite sobering for me.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and I did ultimately realize that the style I had you know, we're all a bit of a product of our childhoods and things that we've experienced and whatever but it doesn't mean that you can't change it. No, we have these, we pick up these things, things bad habits or ways of dealing with things. Uh, you know unconsciously, but what I did learn is um, I learned to recognize even if I don't always get the language right, I now can see like, basically, if I'm throwing a landmine into the room, I realize if you're throwing a landmine into the room. That doesn't bode well for your relationship. When that explodes, exactly Nothing good comes from that, and so what you're talking about there is self-regulation.

Melissa Ferrari:

Isn't it right being able to regulate? What you do and what you bring, and so there's self-regulation, but there's also the co-regulation, the two-person system, where you're impacting each other um around what you both do and how you are curious or how you do stay open to your partner's differences yes, you know and and that's a skill, that's a real skill being able to keep your eyes on each other and watching.

Melissa Ferrari:

How does my partner respond to what I do? Yes, right, and that will give you information. How they respond to what you say or what you do gives you an information. Ah, he or she doesn't like that.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and so prepared to see it though, don't you?

Melissa Ferrari:

you do, you do and that, and that's where you know secure functioning relationships. I mean, I have a statistic. I think only about 20% to 25% of the population actually do it or can do it right. But actually that's wrong. All can do it. Most of us can do it. All can do it, most of us can do it. It's just that it is so difficult to do because the of the innate humanness of who we are, that we're driven by what we want, yes. And then when you're doing that in relationship to another, another and they want what they want, yes, yeah, right, it's, it's not easy. This is this is you know, I say 20 to 25 people you know have secure functioning relationships, because this is so hard. Most people operating fairly insecurely unless they make a decision, and the decision is I want a secure functioning relationship, and the place to learn more about that is through the PACT Institute. You know we talk a lot about secure functioning and I'll send you some links to put to put in this as well.

Melissa Ferrari:

Um, fiona, yeah, for people to start to have a look at. Conflict is so rife with so many different aspects, and it's not really just about being difficult or disagreeing. You know what I mean. It usually has a whole lot of stuff underneath that, and so the key is know your person, know their vulnerabilities yes, know how you hurt them.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, like know yourself as well, Exactly Know yourself, know how you behave, know your person, know what affects them. It's kind of just that willingness to be really open to seeing it and feeling it and squirming because you do squirm a lot when you see yourself and it's not so nice but you learn a lot as well. And at least I you know. I can't say I'm perfect, not by any means, but I'm not throwing landmines into the room all the time, which is something I used to do. It was very combative, I can't imagine it.

Fiona Kane:

The butter wouldn't melt. I can't imagine it. Her butter wouldn't melt. And it's funny. That too, isn't it? We're all the same, we're all the same. Yeah, yeah, because we've got the way we present ourselves to the world and then we've got the way we present ourselves to our partner, and sometimes our partner doesn't get the best of us, and that's the sad thing is because that's where we play out all of these emotional things from life and unconscious dynamics.

Melissa Ferrari:

Yes, the unconscious dynamics that we bring from our past.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So look, I am aware of time, but essentially with relationships, you know, with conflict management, it seems to be sort of understanding what you're doing, kind of learning more about your partner's style and how they are affected by things or how they… how to navigate them. Navigate them and starting to have some conversations, some honest conversations, is that sort of a…? And set it up right and set it up right with…. Set it up right Now. What was the?

Melissa Ferrari:

line you mean a lot to me. You mean a lot to me, Whatever word you mean a lot to me.

Fiona Kane:

Your husband will laugh when he's watching this. He probably won't watch it. I have to go to practice, I have to go and write that down and I have to go. Hang on, hang on, let me go and get my post-it note.

Melissa Ferrari:

You mean a lot to me, exactly, exactly, exactly. But the thing is, they do mean a lot. You know, this is the thing. We never say it that way. Exactly, it's like they do mean a lot and you know, sometimes people do need to hear it because we bring a bed of issues. We bring so many, so many different, you know issues or pathologies or whatever you want to call it to relationship that really do need some undivided attention sometimes because it could be the area that keeps getting you both in trouble.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, exactly. Well, I think I will have to have you back to talk more about attachment styles and things. Let's do that. This has been really interesting and thank you for bearing with me on all my weird theories. Yeah.

Melissa Ferrari:

I think you're great.

Fiona Kane:

I think all you're doing is naming how most of us think really, yeah, yeah yeah, that's pretty much it, and it's good to get clarification on and a little language maybe better language I could be using and that we all could be using really because we just don't say those things to our partner. I don't know, maybe some people do, but I think so many of us, like you said, it sort of becomes this unconscious thing and you barely even talk to or ask questions or have the curiosity that you're talking about. We just kind of uh grunted each other and so actually looking at someone saying you mean a lot to me, uh is uh probably also quite outside of the comfort zone for a lot of people and maybe we.

Melissa Ferrari:

That's why we need to start practicing these things they are and and you know and your partner probably knows that about you as well that it's not really your style and that you're probably trying something different. I mean, it could be loaded with so many things, but I think you know really um, you know the old sweet nothings in into your partner's ear, like you know, start, start whispering into your partner's ear. I think think you're amazing.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah and see what happens. Definitely, definitely. Look, I'm going to put your details in the show notes, but is there a particular place that people can go to find you?

Melissa Ferrari:

Yeah, my website melissafararicomau.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, that's where you'll find me, Melissa, with one L Ferrari.

Melissa Ferrari:

F-E-R-R-I, m-e-l-i-s-s-a. Ferrari F-E-R-R-A-R-I dot com, dot au, and you'll find me there, or you could probably even put me, you know, into a Facebook. If you put Melissa Ferrari psychotherapist, I would come up there, and I have my page with plenty of followers on there as well.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, Look. Thank you so much for your wisdom and for your time, Melissa. I really appreciate it.

Fiona Kane:

Thanks for asking me, fiona. It's wonderful. Thanks, and I'm going to get your promise here. You're going to come back on. I will Online so I can hold it to you. Thank you so much, really appreciate it, and thank you for everyone who's listening and watching. You know what I try and do here is have real conversations about things that matter, so please like, subscribe and share, and I will talk to you again next week. Thank you everyone. Bye.

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