The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane

Episode 99 Understanding Autistic Burnout: Building Inclusive Environments for Neurodivergent Individuals

• Fiona Kane • Season 1 • Episode 99

Share episode

Send us a text

In this episode my guest, Michael Coles, shares his raw and personal journey of living with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). His story opens a window into the often unseen struggles of managing stress for those living with ASD, which can manifest as panic attacks, meltdowns, and shutdowns.

We engage in a heartfelt discussion about the concept of "masking" within autism—a coping mechanism that can lead to burnout when workplaces lack the necessary accommodations for neurodiverse individuals. Michael’s story sheds light on the critical need for early recognition of burnout signs and the value of finding support with experts and within the neurodiverse community. The importance of connecting with "neurokin"—those who share similar experiences—is highlighted as a source of strength and understanding.

Creating environments where neurodivergent individuals can thrive is not just a possibility, but a necessity. We discuss how this is possible.

More about Michael Coles:
Michael is 50 years old and he is autistic. Having been diagnosed 3 times, first with PDD-NOS back when he was 3, then diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome at 35, then rediagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder in 2017, he has been struggling with high levels of anxiety and stress his whole life.  In November 2023, he was hospitalized as a result of a lot of stress and changes being imposed on him at work. 

Michael's contact info:-

Website- www.deepdiveau.net

Instagram – www.instagram.com/thedeepdiveau

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@thedeepdiveau

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-deep-dive-podcast

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560333886558

YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/@TheDeepDiveAU

Check out Michael’s other interviews - http://linktr.ee/michaelcoles

Annie Crowe’s Neuroaccess Network  http://www.neuroaccess.com.au/thenetwork

Amaze Connect – 1300 308699 http://www.amaze.org.au

Yellow Ladybugs – http://www.yellowladybugs.com.au


 

Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/

Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/

Sign up to receive our newsletter by clicking here.

Instagram

Facebook

LinkedIn

Credit for the music used in this podcast:

The Beat of Nature

Music by Olexy from Pixabay



Fiona Kane:

Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection Podcast. I'm your host, Fiona Kane. Today I have another guest, so I'd like to welcome Michael Coles. Hi, Michael.

Michael Coles:

Hi Fiona, how are you this afternoon?

Fiona Kane:

Well, thank you. I've just mentioned, just in case we hear it. I'm near a RAF base and there are some what did you call those planes? Some sort of jet fighter type?

Michael Coles:

planes. It was F-111, I think so1, I think so. It wasn't. That's what it previously called. I don't know what it's called now. I just don't keep track of these things anymore I lost track of them a while ago.

Fiona Kane:

Anyway, very loud uh, raf aircraft uh practicing around here. So if you hear some sort of loud thunder type sounds, that's what it is. I apologize in advance, but uh and it's 40 degrees here. I'm in Sydney, so it's 40 degrees or 41 degrees here today, so it's very warm, but I'm inside in the air conditioning very luckily.

Michael Coles:

Yes, I've got lovely air conditioning. Here in Queensland we get affected by humidity quite a lot so yes, I'm not really good with humidity, unfortunately.

Fiona Kane:

So, Michael, for those who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about you?

Michael Coles:

Okay, so I'm just about to turn 50, or I have turned 50 by the time the episode will be released. I'm an autistic. I've been living with autism pretty much all my life. I was first diagnosed with PDD-NOS when I was three back in 1978. I was first diagnosed with PDD-NOS when I was three back in 1978. Then I was re-diagnosed, so it's post-development. Sorry, I can't remember off my heart Pervasal, pervasal. I can't pronounce the words. I'm really struggling.

Fiona Kane:

That's all right. So essentially, is it what they kind of used to diagnose before they knew how to diagnose autism?

Michael Coles:

Yes, it's a basic developmental disorder not otherwise specified. So basically they didn't have a name for it as yet.

Fiona Kane:

Okay, yeah, sorry to interrupt you. I just thought people won't know what I've heard of that, so I just thought it was best to say that.

Michael Coles:

No, no, it's all good. It's all good, it's good for explain as well. So, yes, and then I was diagnosed with uh, with um, with Asperger's syndrome, back in 2010, when my first wife basically sort of left me after six months of marriage, which is not very nice, um. But then, sort of like, I met my now now wife, who's who's been with me like you know, uh, nearly 11 years now, or 14 years actually together, and now we're 11 years married. But I got diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder again back in 2017.

Michael Coles:

I basically sort of went to my clinical psychologist when one of my sort of managers was trying to bully me and stuff like that. But I think, because of my autism spectrum disorder, asd, which is particularly sort of known at that particular stage, I just wanted to sort of get some support and then, sort of like, I went to my clinical psychologist and then I got diagnosed. So it was an interesting sort of journey, sort of going from that to now, interesting sort of journey, sort of going from going from that to now. So, and I obviously sort of uh, I only got in the NDIS back in late 2023 after I had a autistic meltdown or autistic burnout episode back in November 2023. Sorry, I've just finished that sentence, sorry.

Fiona Kane:

Sorry, yeah, yeah, no problem. Sorry, we're having slight technical difficulties. It's dropping out a little bit. However, I'm sure it's all good. Generally speaking, this podcast works, even if that happens a little bit, so we will just keep going. So one of the reasons I wanted to speak to you is we were talking about autistic burnout when you and I were just conversing earlier, and I suppose there's a few things. So, first of all, I know people have heard of autism, but probably just to give us a because people might have heard of it, but they have all various ideas about what it looks like and obviously there's not one answer for what it looks like. But it would be really interesting just to have a bit of a from your point of view. What is it like living with autism in your experience?

Michael Coles:

So it's basically sort of in relation to stress I don't handle stress, unfortunately too well sort of in relation to stress I don't handle stress unfortunately too well. Um, I used to have like a full-time job. Now, sort of like, you know, I can't handle full-time work anymore because basically, sort of I know my daughter was, um, diagnosed with autism as well, because it does actually run in families. So basically, sort of like, it's like if I'm putting under, if I put under sort of severe duress or you know, basically it's the like, you know, stress that I can't handle.

Michael Coles:

Basically I get panic attacks, like I can get sort of meltdowns, shutdowns. Sometimes I can get sleepy, you know, or you know, basically in the afternoon, if I sort of like have a like have a hard day and stuff like that, I tend to get tired about two or three o'clock, which need, which I desperately need sleep. And I know, sort of like you know for a fact, that you sort of like you need to function between, like you know, three and five o'clock because you've got parental responsibilities or you know work responsibilities and that type of thing.

Fiona Kane:

So it's also okay, so a lot of it's about sort of inability to regulate under stress.

Michael Coles:

Yeah, and basically you sort of like, you know you tend to info dump all the type of thing, and I do apologise for info dumping and stuff like that, because I do tend to sort of like, if I express things, you know, if I talk about my favourite subject, I could talk about that for hours. But if I sort of talk about something that I just don't really enjoy, that sort of like, you know, I tend to shut down and not sort of like talk at all. So I mean I don't tend to read between the lines too well, I've been bullied a lot because for little to no explanation, so sort of you sort of like they could sort of like, you know, tell if I'm a little bit different. But you know, basically I get bullied for that, which I don't think that's fair. Sometimes I've got selective memory. If I've got a good memory for things I really enjoy, like you know, I have a really good long-term memory for things I really enjoy. But then sort of like I tend to forget and stuff like that. If it's sort of like you know things have been mentioned recently and it's sort of like you know things have been mentioned recently, and if I sort of like don't have that in a visual form, then, um, I tend to forget as well. So that's why I usually like to have sort of like visual calendars and all that type of thing. So I do have to ask a question sometimes and sometimes that can get a little bit annoying for some people.

Michael Coles:

That sort of like you know, don't understand autism, I can get flustered for no apparent reason. So that could be sort of like you know, don't understand autism, I can get flustered for no apparent reason. So that could be sort of like, you know, anxieties at play here. Um, when I'm nervous I can't put coherent sentences together. So I do apologize if I sort of like you know, if it's um I, I have been diagnosed with um. I was trying to think I can't remember sort of like the verbal thing for it, but um, I did. I was diagnosed with a speech speech therapist. Uh, early, uh early last year. So basically it's sort of like um, it's, I remember it. Now it's um expressive language disorder. I've got mild expressive language disorder and mild to moderate receptive language disorder. So basically sometimes I can't sort of like I assume that that means the ability to either understand what people are saying or mild to moderate receptive language disorder.

Fiona Kane:

So basically, sometimes I can't sort of like take this in, so I assume that that means you're able to either understand what people are saying or maybe communicate with people Verbally.

Michael Coles:

Yes, that's correct. Yes.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, Okay, and you said that you're quite visual, in kind of the way you are. I wonder again I don't know if you've seen this movie, but recently I saw a movie with Claire Danes in it and she was actually playing like a real-life person. It's like the story about this woman. Her name is Temple Grandin.

Michael Coles:

Yes, yes, she's one of the biggest, I think, autism advocates. I think it was probably the first autism advocate that was in the world. So, yeah, so Temple Grandin is quite a big autism advocate in the world. So, yeah, so Timbal Grandin is quite a big autism advocate in the States. Yeah, yeah.

Fiona Kane:

So in this film, I mean, I don't know, I don't know, but I assume it seems like she displays quite well and shows kind of they visualise quite well what this might look like, I suppose. Well, it appears that way. To me it appears like a really good sort of understanding and what you see in this case is that she's also quite visual. So she's it's kind of showing, it's kind of giving an example of what the visuals might look for, like for her in any situation. And so she'll be in a situation and she'll be having all these visuals go through her head and it's kind of showing you all the information she's processing at the time and trying to have these conversations and like what you were explaining, how she sometimes doesn't read the room well, doesn't understand what's expected of her, that kind of thing.

Michael Coles:

It's sort of like you know, a playbook. It's like sort of like having a playbook that the neurotypicals have which we don't actually get. So it's basically sort of like we have to guess what they're actually thinking, and sometimes we can't read what they're thinking. We can't sort of like, you know, we don't have theory of that mind. So that's kind of where we sort of like, you know, have some deficits there. But it's sort of like you know, if there's people there, other people that sort of like know us and just get to us that then we can sort of blend really well.

Fiona Kane:

So yes, yeah. Well, what she was able to do is she worked in the in the cattle industry and she was able to change the way that they set up um slaughterhouses and and those kinds of places, because she kind of knew what the cattle would get spooked by. So she was able to look at these kind of these places as abattoirs and kind of go through and say, okay, the reason the cows are in distress is because there's like a flag over there or someone's hung a T-shirt over the edge or there's a dangly thing there or whatever it is. But she was able to spot all of the things. So the fact that she's living with autism sort of meant that well, she had a lot of challenges socially but she actually was really great at kind of zoning in and sort of finding specific problems in that area and she's made a lot of difference there.

Michael Coles:

Yeah, but I sort of like you know the dangers of that, particularly masking.

Michael Coles:

I know sort of like a lot of people, especially my age, has been forced to basically integrate with the rest of the community.

Michael Coles:

So it's sort of like the dangers with masking is basically sort of like how do I just describe it?

Michael Coles:

It's basically trying to sort of be not your authentic self, and if you sort of hide your authentic self it basically leads to a lot of burnout. Because you know you're trying to sort of pretend to be, you're trying to sort of like you know you're trying to think about 10 times harder and stuff like that and what to do and you're trying to sort of act and stuff. So I mean sort of like sometimes it comes naturally, but then sometimes like it doesn't come naturally, if that makes sense, um, sometimes, but you know, sometimes you can't sort of hold that in for like too long. You can only sort of like cope with that up to a certain point and then sort of then sort of like you know the meltdowns and the shutdowns happen. So, um, it's, I mean masking is it's not that great in the bigger sense of things, because you can actually get big meltdowns out of that. So with the neuroaffirming approach, they're trying to encourage people more to be their authentic self.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, so masking would be that thing where you're trying really, really hard to be like everybody else and be in social situations and things. Is that what you mean by masking?

Michael Coles:

Pretty much in a lot of situations, particularly in terms of employment. I know, sort of like you know, in social situations sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work. It all depends on whether they sort of like you know they can, they know how to sort of, they can sort of be, how to sort of, they can sort of be used to you or something like that. So if people are used to you and they can sort of you can basically be your authentic self, it's fine. But it's more sort of like you know, basically in workplaces or in schools, especially where those accommodations haven't been accounted for. So if you have accommodations accounted for and you sort of like you know you can really live a successful life if you have those accommodations in place.

Michael Coles:

If you don't have those accommodations in, then they're basically sort of expecting you to act like a normal person. Then it sort of creates a lot of burnout and then sort of exhaustion. You need to sort of sleep more and then, sort of like you, you only sort of like, um, you haven't got the like the amount of spoons that you have on a regular basis. So, like if, if you have a sort of like you know, rough night's sleep, um, which, as autistics, actually regularly sort of have. So if you don't have a lot of spoons, you don't. I mean that there's sort of like you know, there's things which that fill your cup, which basically increases the spoons, and also things that can actually take a lot of spoons away. So if you take a lot of spoons away and you have no spoons, then you can't really cope or can't really function properly okay, yeah, and you said, uh, that you experienced autistic burnout.

Fiona Kane:

So can you tell us a little bit that? Obviously this is what you're starting to tell us about. Tell us a little bit about that story and what and what that was like okay.

Michael Coles:

so it started, I think back in may 2023, when I had sort of like, um, a couple of staff members that actually really sort of knew about my autism and all that type of thing left and there was all these sort of like you know, there's new stuff, and then they basically sort of wanted their own sort of like you know, sort of like you know ways and means of doing things, but the problem was they basically changed a lot of things rather than just one or two things at a time. So you know, that basically sort of put me into a lot of overwhelm and basically also, I don't tend to sort of take criticism too well. So I was basically criticized by you know a number of factors that basically I wasn't even taught about. So there was only they taught me some information, but not a lot of information. But you know, they were trying to sort of get me out of that organization. So it sort of felt like you're basically sort of trying your best, you're trying your hardest, but you felt like you weren't good enough. So and you were sort of like you know, you sort of like you tried to sort of like express your needs and stuff like that, and then you're not listened and all that type of thing and sort of that sort of you sort of like, you know, you had enough.

Michael Coles:

At that particular stage, when I was sort of like um, on november 2 2023, I basically texted my wife and basically said I said I, I can't cope with this anymore, basically should have. She recommends to go to a gp. But then sort of like, um, unfortunately, knowing what, knowing myself, I tried to sort of like, you know, just basically sort of like, unfortunately, knowing myself, I tried to sort of like, you know, just basically sort of shove it down to one side and just keep going with it. But then by 10 o'clock, I just rang the 13 health number here in Queensland and they basically called an ambulance and carted me off to hospital. So that's how severe it got. So and therefore, sort of like you know, my GP sort of told me to basically resign from that job because I needed to like get away from that toxic environment.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, yeah. So it is important to recognize. I suppose, if you were talking to someone else now who might be going through a similar experience, what would you say? Maybe is a warning sign that they could see or experience that could maybe help them get help earlier, make the decision earlier, rather than end up in a situation where they're being carted off to hospital On reflection is there something? Or what would you say?

Michael Coles:

Probably sort of connect with some Yurkin and stuff like that. When I actually sort of like joined the NDIS and stuff like that back in December 2023, I found out, like you know, with my journey and stuff like that towards burnout or after burnout, for, like you know, to a degree I basically went to like the Queensland Disability Expo and then I found all these Neurokin and stuff like that that basically sort of, like you know, had autism spectrum disorder but then they sort of they were living their best life. So it was good to sort of like connect with those neurokin and I've actually connected with quite a few neurokin over the years.

Fiona Kane:

So neurokin, is that what you're saying? I was trying to think what that word is.

Michael Coles:

you're saying neurokin, neurokin yes, yeah, there's a group that I actually joined called NeuroAccess, which a good friend of mine, annie Crow, actually runs. She's actually sort of a really good. She's a really good advocate for people with autism spectrum disorder or people with neurodiverse conditions like ADHD and stuff like that. And I know, sort of like you know, people tend to have ADHD, which is a combination of ADHD and autism together. So it's sort of like really good to have sort of like connecting to that neurokin in place. So she's got this really good chat group and you know basically where you can connect with her and you can sort of like there's like you know there's support groups and then like there's some live sort of like meetings and all that type of thing where you can sort of like you know, talk and have a thing and it's really good to sort of be sort of involved with.

Michael Coles:

And I know sort of like a lot of neurodivergent allied health professionals have joined a business called Neurodivergent Business Collective which runs by Adina Levy, so that's a really good one. That was basically sort of established. There's also another one which is ConnectFest as well. So there's a few sort of like neurodivergent affirming sort of like you know chat groups which I've actually joined and I've really enjoyed that. So I've connected with an occupational therapist and a speech therapist as well, which I got diagnosed with receptive language disorder and expressive language disorder, and also obviously I'm seeing my psychologist as well, which is basically sort of like you know it's gotten. It's put a sort of like you know, in sort of a report form what my conditions are and how I could, sort of like you know, work with those needs and stuff like that as well.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah. So that would be the thing too, if one of the things I suppose the outcome of talking to me and having these conversations, I suppose is to sort of try and get out there that this is a real issue and that there are a lot of people who are living with autism, who are very capable of their work. They just need things to be in a certain way or, or um, or certain things to be put in place yes, that's accommodations and that's sort of like it's really essential yeah, yeah, so that they can manage their, their stress and those kinds of things.

Fiona Kane:

So, uh, do you want to talk a little bit more about? So, if someone's listening and maybe they're an employer or they're in a situation where they're working with someone with autism, what are the things that you might recommend that they would look at?

Michael Coles:

So I've basically sort of put together a like a document called Working With Michael. So basically I'm reading sort of off this list now, so basically. So basically I put a list of how I work best. So basically I work best when I'm not time pressured and can approach tasks in a logical and basically a structured way. So I work best with a lot of structure and a lot of repetition.

Michael Coles:

So it's good to sort of have sort of like you know, checklists and stuff like that of working, how to work and stuff like that and what procedures to put in place. So you need to sort of make sure that the tasks are clear and I know 100% what I'm doing. I don't like it when I'm basically sort of like, you know, there's a lot of like vague instructions. So I like to sort of have sort of like clear instructions so I know exactly what to do. And if you sort of like vague instructions, so I like to sort of have sort of like clear instructions so I know exactly what to do. And if it's sort of like it's put together in a nice sort of easy to read format, that's really good as well. So basically there's also where there's no confusion or ambiguity in a task. So you need to have that clearance as well. So basically, and also, I have a fear about doing anything wrong and stuff like that. So I tend to be very guarded in terms of, like you know, I'm I don't want to get into trouble and stuff like that, because I tend to get very scared when people like scream at me or shout at me or or just you know basically. Just you know, basically sort of like get mad at me for no reason at all. So it's just, you know, it's. I keep garden in terms of way I like to plan my day, tint I'd like to the nth degree. So I use calendars and all that type of thing to make sure that sort of everything's on track and I can keep everything in control. So basically, if it's if there's urgent tasks that are quick to complete, I can do them. If there's, if there's, like you know, I'm allowed a lot of time and stuff like that, um, if there's a change in priorities, I like to discuss those, just to make sure that we're sort of both, both on the same page. So if there's a sudden change of process, we have been changed. I like to sort of make sure that everything is covered. So I like to make sure that sort of like you know, everything is covered from go to woe, so we can sort of know what to do and stuff like that. So there's no sort of ambiguity and sort of like you know, we have sort of all the same page.

Michael Coles:

I tend to work best when I actually sort of like communicate with people and trying to sort of see what they see, how they see it. So I like to sort of see how they sort of approach a task and sort of, like you know, try and find out a way to sort of see how they see it as well. If I'm subject to a lot of pressure and a lot of changes, I would like to sort of do at least a bit of planning so I could actually sort of make sure that everything's sort of like you know, the onboarding is a lot better, and stuff like that, than what I've experienced. So if I get put in the spot and if I have to make a decision straight away, I need to sort of have a lot more time to actually sort of like you know, deal with that. So I can, I can feel like I'm making the correct decision.

Michael Coles:

Sometimes it's sort of like you know, you don't know what to what's, what's the answer they're wanting, and stuff like that. So that's why I struggle in jump interviews as well, because you need to sort of find out what they're wanting and stuff like that. So that's why I struggle in jump interviews as well, because you need to sort of find out what they're actually wanting. But the problem is basically you can't predict what they're wanting. So yeah, so I get tired from a lot of overwhelm. If there's a meeting suddenly organized, they sort of need to sort of find out what it is about, and all that type of thing. So everything is great if there's a lot of planning involved, all that type of thing. So everything is great if there's a lot of planning involved.

Michael Coles:

So if I don't have much planning involved or sort of like you know, if I sort of like don't know, sort of like you know that, what it's all about, I do tend to get overwhelmed.

Michael Coles:

So if there's something I need to correct, um, and if I sort of like it, if I find I'm in a lot of trouble, I tend to sort of like overwhelm, or or if I sort of like, you know, I tend to sort of like overwhelm, or if I sort of like you know I tend to sort of ruminate on things and stuff like that.

Michael Coles:

So I tend to well, it's not that I like to be perfect, but it's sort of like you know we've got a perfectionistic tendency which can be problematic as well. So it's and I think also the main problem with my autism is transition. So you have to sort of like, if you want to go from one to another, and then you have to go back to the old task and stuff like that, you forget where you are, and stuff like that. So sometimes you sort of like you know there can be, sort of like you know there's big problems with transitions as well, so and if it's all of a sudden, then sort of like it can't be problematic as well yeah, yeah, so it's all about structure and um and and really commit.

Fiona Kane:

I mean, honestly, a lot of these things are just they should really be in the workplace anyway, but I talk to people every day about what their workplace is like and I know that these things are not in the workplace, where people have clear instructions, they know what's expected of them, and there's a manual, and the manual's up to date and this is what you need to do, and I can say this in a kind of judgy way, except I've been an employer myself over the years and I know I haven't always done that perfectly either.

Fiona Kane:

It's easier said than done, but I get what you're saying.

Michael Coles:

And the other thing too I imagine in this it would be the chain of command stuff as well that you'd have to be really clear who you're reporting to and who's making these decisions, because if you had two or three people giving you a different idea of what needs to be done, I imagine that wouldn't and yeah, that's the main problem I had was basically I was dealing with about three or four people at the same time and I wanted it done differently and all that type of thing, instead of, like you know, I was used to that one way and then, basically, sort of like you know, they wanted to do it a different way, which kind of didn't make sense to me.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest things that in my experience, just in general, is that the clients that I talk to who want to do a good job, really want to do well, really trying their best, and they get lots of mixed information and, like you said, changes and that kind of thing and just a really poor communication overall and really poor instructions and all that sort of stuff. That's that's stressful for anyone.

Fiona Kane:

However, for people who are neurodivergent, obviously that's that's just way over the top, it's just too much yeah, and that sort of makes people tired, it makes people overwhelmed and then sort of like it's sort of it's not good for their quality of life as well yes, yeah, but the good thing is that and I I don't know, uh, but I I'm guessing that, based on what you're saying, that you probably are pretty good if you have a specific task and you know, you know the instructions, you know well, uh, that you that you're a really good person to have like focusing or concentrating on certain things.

Michael Coles:

Yeah.

Fiona Kane:

Because you've got ability to focus on it. Would that be true for you?

Michael Coles:

That is very true as well. So yeah, so, like you know, my job is basically sort of like a little bit different now. I'm sort of doing sort of more casual work. I've just started a program facilitator role at Empower Autism, so I'm just basically sort of teaching other people how to live their best life of autism. So I'm really looking forward to being part of that. I'm also a board member with the Australian Neurodivergent Parents Association so we're sort of, like you know, dealing with policy and stuff like that for government and stuff like that. We're trying to advocate for other neurodivergent parents that are sort of being let down by the systems and stuff like that. We're trying to sort of advocate for them. So it's really sort of great to be involved with all these autistic organizations and how to sort of like you know how can improve people's lives with autism. So I think sort of having those resources and having connected to those resources and having that neurokin connection as well, I think is so important.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, and it's funny that on this podcast, no matter what the topic is that I'm talking about, it often comes back to. One of the most important things is connection.

Michael Coles:

Yes, exactly.

Fiona Kane:

Connection to other people and also having some sort of team around us of whether it's medical professionals or whoever it is that we need on our team to help us, because we can't all do everything and we don't all know everything, and most of us, you know, benefit from having support from professionals that know things that you know that we don't know. So just having a good team, whatever that looks like as well, is really useful.

Michael Coles:

Yeah, and having that sort of like support is really essential as well. And having the right support, that sort of like that can really sort of like you can be your authentic self with and you don't have to sort of like hide who you really are. I think sort of it's important to be who you authentically are and so you can actually be your full self, rather than sort of like you know, trying to be something that you're not.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, yeah. And the good thing is, I suppose, because of people like Temple Grandin and people like you and people who are out there advocating, we are learning more and more that that's okay. And sometimes now you'll see certain behaviours of individuals and you'll kind of go oh okay, I think I know what's going on here and it's just them responding to their environment. And so sometimes, yeah, if people who are, well, I think I would be classed as neurotypical, although I must admit I, when you list a lot of the, a lot of the things that you would use to diagnose autism, I tick a lot of those boxes, but I don't tick all of them. So I suspect that all of us are on some sort of spectrum, really, of just how our brains work. That's just how it is. But, yeah, really, when you're talking to the neurotypical people, I suppose the big thing is for us just to have a real awareness around hey, this might, there might be something you're doing in the environment that's actually negatively affecting this person. Who, with whose neurodivergent is that something?

Michael Coles:

yeah, especially with these sort of like you know the environment, with workplaces for example, like you know, basically this sort of like you know the fluorescent lights it's not great for autistic, not great for autistic people like you know. The open plan offices, for example, that's sort of not really sort of like conducive for a good environment with a person with autism. I like to work from home, so it's it's good for me because I can sort of focus. Basically I've got my own environment. I could sort of like you know environment, I can control the environment and basically have it to whatever needs that I actually sort of want. So it's great to sort of like you want to make sure that your environment is good for you as well. So I think it's sort of like people I think people in the autism spectrum do well with self-employment as well because they can control that environment and they can control their sort of like you know they can sort of be conducive to their appointments and all that type of thing. And also you know you could have a parent of a person with autism as well. So usually it runs in families. So sometimes you have to sort of like you know, attend their appointments and stuff like that. So you're trying to sort of, like you know, being an autistic parent and also being a like a person with autism can have a lot of challenges as well, but if people can put the right accommodations in place, I think it's a good thing. I might have to sort of like you know, mention that the National Autism Strategy has just been released. So I'm hoping with some of those there's some really good sort of like you know, things that's going to be with the going to be implemented with the National Autism Strategy. So hopefully that will encourage sort of more sort of like you know, encourage like people with autism can live their best life through that strategy as well. So hopefully with some of those strategies it will work really well. But there can be a couple of limitations as well.

Michael Coles:

So obviously I've created a podcast called the Deep Dive uh, in june last year where I basically sort of talked to a lot of autistic people and a lot of new divergent people and some disabled people about sort of living their best life with what they've got and stuff like that as well, and they're sort of creating their own spaces and their own sort of like you know, really sort of you know, um, creative spaces and stuff like that which are really succeeding with. So I've been really passionate in terms of like creating this podcast to be able to sort of, like, you know, visualise those ideas and stuff like that in place. So that's the main reason why I created the podcast is so, basically, people can with autistic sorry, I'm losing my track of thought here, I do apologize Sometimes, you know, they can live their best autistic life and we can sort of like profile these people that are living their best autistic life and then they sort of like, you know, we can sort of like make their visual to other people and stuff like that. And then there's sort of like you know, tools and tricks and all that type of thing which they've created pretty much by themselves, which I think is really really good.

Michael Coles:

So, yeah, so I think one is Understanding, zoe, which I'll have one of the episodes in Season 2, which is starting on the 5th of February. So I've got four and all the episodes, but that's one of them that's coming up in February. So I think you'll be really keen to find out about understanding Zoe. So she actually sort of like you know, the person I've interviewed started her from scratch and it's a really good sort of AI tool that you can actually use to sort of help with, you know, basically sort of caring for your autistic child.

Fiona Kane:

Oh, okay, well, that sounds really good. Yes, so that's an episode. Our episode will probably come out. Might come out just a bit after that It'll be mid-February or something. This episode will come out. So by the time this is released, that episode of yours will be out already. Yeah, sounds about right, yeah, and, and they're looking for. Remind us what the podcast is called the deep dive podcast.

Michael Coles:

It's called the deep dive podcast, so you can access it at this website, wwwdeepdiveaunet. You can actually sort of like log on to our instagram page or tiktok page at thedeepdiveau, so you can log on through our Instagram or TikTok page. Or you can go to our LinkedIn, which is the Deep Dive podcast, our Facebook. Just search the Deep Dive podcast and you can find it there. And you can also sort of like go to our YouTube page where you can sort of view all our videos at thedeepdiveau as well. Great, great, and I'll put all of thedeepdiveau as well.

Fiona Kane:

Great, great, and I'll put all of those links into the show notes as well. Before we finish up, I just wanted to say to you as well there's a couple of things. One, if the things that you were talking about before essentially, it would be great if people who are living with autism do learn how to advocate for themselves and how to ask for what they need. But on the other side of things, if I know that I'm working with someone who's who's living with autism, is it reasonable for me to say to them hey look, I know that you're having some challenges or that you might have some challenges here. Is there anything I can do to help you or support you? Would that be okay or would that be considered a go? That would be okay.

Michael Coles:

And also you can put them in like the direction of. There's a helpline called Autism Connect which is run by an organisation called Maze in Victoria. There is a 1300 number which I'll sort of like put in the show notes. I'll email that to you. But there is a um, but there is a really good autism connect service which is run by maze and they can sort of help you with whatever questions you need, whatever referrals and stuff like that um and there's also sort of like you can be, it can be really accessible and stuff like that um through the chatbots and also sort of like. You know there's a phone number as well and they've got email support as well. So that's probably the best sort of like starting point you can actually sort of work through. If it wasn't for Autism Peer Assist, which is actually through Autism Connect, I wouldn't have been able to get it on the NDIS. So I think sort of like having that sort of assistance and that help is really appreciated.

Michael Coles:

I know there's another sort of people. There's another sort of organisation which deals with women on the spectrum called Yellow Ladybugs. So that's another organisation where they have their own conference and stuff like that on a yearly basis. It's very neuroaffirming as well, and they've got a lot of resources and stuff like that for a yearly basis. It's very neuroaffirming as well, and they've got a lot of resources and stuff like that for autistic girls as well. So they're probably sort of two sort of organisations which I'll probably put that in the direction, for you can also sort of go to your autism organisation in your state as well. So that's probably a good resource to go through as well.

Fiona Kane:

And I'm sure I do have a fair few international listeners, but I'm sure they've got different variations of this wherever they are, so they could Google those as well. But they could certainly look at some of the Australian websites and things, I assume.

Michael Coles:

Yep, sounds good. Yeah, no, it's really good. The sort of like you know the the information is really evolving and I know for a fact that sort of like you know there's sort of learning things all the time, and I know there's a lot of neurofibbing people in this space that are really sort of like passionate about what they're trying to sort of do. So I think it's really really good to sort of have those people in that sort of space to be able to sort of help people with autism.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly People who live it, who know it, who can really help others, which is what you're doing as well. So I really admire that you're doing the same thing, but what I'm going to do is I'm going to lead the way and maybe shine a light on some of these issues and point people in the direction for support and services that they need. So that's well done on you.

Michael Coles:

Yeah, I think it's sort of like it's really sort of helpful to have those resources into place. I've had to sort of find these all myself, so it's better to sort of have those. You know people you know, so like you know, you want to make sure that sort of like you know, the people get the right information, not get a lot of misinformation about. So if you get the right information you can actually live your best life. So it's sort of it's really good to sort of, like you know, be sort of like you know, taken in the right direction, have those resources on hand so you can actually sort of you can actually sort of like you know, succeed and thrive.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, which is the whole point, and so I'm really glad that you're doing that and I'll happily, like I said to everyone, the show notes will have all the links and they can go out and check out your podcast. And you've got I think you've got a mug there as well, haven't you?

Michael Coles:

Yeah, they can go out and check out your podcast. And you've got I think you've got a mug there as well, haven't you? Yeah, so basically, I can sort of this is the Deep Dive mug you can buy through our merchandise page at our website, wwwdeepdiveaunet. I think I really like this one. So I actually sort of rebranded this last year, so it's sort of it's got our links and stuff like that, and so you can sort of have that on your desk and you can have that as a sort of like. You know, it's a conversation starter, that's for sure.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yes, I've got mug envy because I don't have any merch or anything for my podcast. So I'm looking at your podcast. So anyone who's listening to this. You have to check out YouTube or Rumble the video and you can have a look.

Michael Coles:

It's quite a cool mug there that you can purchase. Uh, you can also purchase also stickers and also a um, like a um I was trying to think stubby holder as well. So I've, I've diversified, so it's it's not just mugs you can actually buy, you can actually buy a couple of things as well okay, well done.

Fiona Kane:

Uh, yeah, I haven't even gone there yet.

Michael Coles:

So, yes, a bit of a bit of merch, merch envy and I'm also looking for sponsorships and collabs to sort of work out, because I'm self-funding the podcast at the moment but I'm trying to sort of get that sort of like you know, the cost back in terms of sponsorship and collaboration. So please contact me if you want to have a sponsorship or collaboration.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yes, definitely contact Michael and look Michael before we finish up. Is there anything that you feel that I've missed, that we really should, that you want information or anything that you feel you need to say before we finish up or you feel like we've covered everything?

Michael Coles:

I think we've covered everything. I'm pretty sure we have.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, great, all right. Well, thank you so much, Michael. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show today. Thank you, fiona. Thank you for having me. Thank you to everyone at home who's listening and watching. I hope you enjoyed that episode. I learn so much when I do this podcast. That's what I really love talking to people, and talking to people who have different experiences in life to me, and different advice and information, and all of those contacts and things that are available that I didn't know about. Like I said, I'll put them in the show notes, but please like subscribe, share rate. All of those things. I really appreciate it. I like to have real conversations about things that matter here on the Wellness Connection podcast. So, thanks for your time today and I'll see you all again next week. Thanks, bye-bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Fiona Kane

Host