The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane

What Makes a Healthy Friendship? (Signs, Boundaries & Red Flags to Know) | Ep. 117

• Fiona Kane • Season 1 • Episode 117

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What makes a healthy friendship? In this heartfelt episode of The Wellness Connection, Fiona Kane sits down with life coach Kelly Anne Cummings to explore the highs and lows of friendship - the ones that last, the ones that fade, and everything in between.

Together, they share personal stories about how their own bond grew over time, why timing matters, and how deep friendships require openness, trust, and boundaries. They talk about navigating shifting relationships, recognising red flags like love bombing, and learning to protect your peace without closing yourself off.

Whether you’ve experienced painful friendship breakups or are working to build stronger connections, this conversation offers comfort, clarity, and encouragement to trust your gut and honour your emotional well-being.

Contact Kelly-Anne Cummings

w: | www.wlba.com.au
e: | kelly@wlba.com.au

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wlbacademy/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kellyanne.cummings/

Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/

Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/

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Credit for the music used in this podcast:

The Beat of Nature

Music by Olexy from Pixabay



Fiona Kane:

Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane. Today I actually have another guest and we're going to be talking about friendship, so her name is Kelly-Anne Cummings. Hi, Kelly-Anne.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Hello Fiona. We finally get together to do this.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yes, this has been a long time coming, but we finally got there. It's all good. It's funny because this week I've recorded a few that were have been a long time coming. So some I don't know the stars, moon, something's aligning, and it's all kind of happening this week, so it's good absolutely so for those who don't know you, would you like to introduce yourself?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

certainly. Um well, fiona's already mentioned my name and I would say I'm a seasoned life coach. I've been running a coaching practice in the western suburbs now for probably about 16 years, and I started that journey when I had an eight-month-old baby. He is now 17 or 17 or I don't know if I've got the dates and all of that correct. I then went on to have two more children during that time, and so when I started my coaching practice, I intentionally did it at a slow pace because I knew I wanted to, you know, have a family.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

So right at the very beginning I had no intentions of becoming this big, huge thing. No intentions of it becoming this big, huge thing, and so I have slowly built that up over time and now I have three children, two in high school, one in year six, and I've been married for 20 years next year. So I've just done 19 years and I just really love to support, you know, women and their families to you. To better communicate is probably the main reason why people come to me, and that can change everything.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, it absolutely can change everything. So much of what I talk about on this podcast is about connection and communication and language and all of that. So you introduced me to a topic. You said let's talk about friendship, yes of that. So you introduced me to a topic. You said let's talk about friendship, yes, and you said let's. For an example, let's talk about the story of ours.

Fiona Kane:

So that's an interesting one, because we have known each other for a really long time over a decade at least, yeah, but I would say, not that we've been like enemies or anything, but we've only really probably been friends 12 months or I don't know how long it's been, but a smaller amount of time where we actually call each other friends absolutely. And, uh, do you want to talk a little bit about a bit about that?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

what your your your side of it, I suppose, and I can jump in and tell you my experience as well yeah, um, well, I guess for you and I it it kind of that reconnection, even though we've always known each other and mixed in the same circles. I think it was that opportunity that you and I had to co-lead a women's meeting together, which is for us women with altitude, and so it was almost like not a forced friendship to build. But I guess we're both mature adults and so we find ourselves in a situation where we're now, you know, called to work together and that was just a wonderful opportunity for us to just intentionally connect and intentionally build a friendship out of that. And so you know, I know you were wonderful during that time to just talk about how, you know we've known each other for a long time but we've never really connected. And I remember you saying there was sort of reasons behind that for you and it's just been wonderful to have this friendship cultivated.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And I think sometimes it's a timing thing we may want to be friends with certain people but we find ourselves not quite hanging out in the same circle, so it just doesn't organically happen. Some people just flat out don't like you, so they're not going to make any effort. And I've always really struggled with that personally, because I am the kind of person that wants to be friends with everyone, but along my journey over the last 16 or so years, I've realized that's that's not always going to happen. There's some people that just aren't going to like you and we may, and there's people you don't like as well, pardon.

Fiona Kane:

And there's people you don't like as well, pardon. If there's people you don't like, which I'm sure there's at least some people that you don't like well, why is everyone going to like you? You know what I mean. Like, we understand it, that we don't necessarily like everyone oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, then we don't understand it when everyone doesn't like us, that's right, that's right.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And I think I, probably because of the work you and I do and I can work with anyone and everyone I feel like, well gosh, I've got the skill set to be able to do that. But this person I do want to be friends with just doesn't want to be friends with me. And so, yes, there's the odd person that I'm like, yeah, yeah, I don't think I really want to spend much time with them. Um, but if they had a lean into me, I'm not going to go no, sorry, don't, don't want to be friends with you, which I've observed over the years. Sometimes that is the case between people and and it is okay because, like you said, not everybody likes me.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I'm that, I may have a dislike to some people as well, and that's okay. But I guess the point of us having this conversation around friendship is to never cut somebody off completely, because we just never know what's in our future, and I often talk about and I don't know if you and I have had this conversation about our reputations. If you don't like somebody, that is so okay. Just be really wise in who you share that information with, because we uh, what's that saying, fiona, we're on that three percent from separation or something.

Fiona Kane:

Oh, there's seven degrees from separation or is it six degrees of Kevin Bacon. That's the Kevin Bacon thing, isn't?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

it. Oh is it.

Fiona Kane:

Everyone's like six degrees separated from Kevin Bacon. That used to be the thing.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And I guess that can get people into trouble. If you're having a relatively confidential conversation with somebody about your thoughts on somebody, you don't ever know who they know, and then you don't know what ends up happening down the track to know whether you're like oh gosh, I hope they never say that I said this or that because you've now become friends with that person or you've become enemies with that person. So I think I just went off track with that, Fiona.

Fiona Kane:

No, no, that's all right. So I think I just went off track with that, Fiona. No, no, that's all right. Look on the same footing. It would be be aware of what you believe, about what you hear about people as well, and how much that changes your thought process around them.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, Because sometimes what you hear is true and sometimes it's not, or sometimes it's true, but it's one of those things where I try not to look. I'm human. This is the whole point of this conversation. We're human and we're going to talk about that, but what I try not to do is hate someone on behalf of someone else.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Fiona Kane:

So my thing is, I deal with a human being and ultimately, my judgment is around how they treat me. Yeah, and you know how in my interactions with them. Now, I mean, if they sort of you know, murdered someone or something like that, then you know there might be situations where I don't care how you're going to treat me, I just don't want anything to do with you but, in general in normal sort of situations.

Fiona Kane:

I don't like to to just choose to hate someone on behalf of someone else or someone else has hate someone or has a problem with someone, immediately go into that kind of frame where I feel the same way. I do like to judge people on my interactions with them, not on hearsay, In saying that it's really easy to be. It's hard not to be swayed by it at all. Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's hard for it not to colour the way you look at someone, when you hear certain things about someone.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, and I think yeah, using that word sway. I think as mature adults, we want to be really wise around that. Am I causing somebody else to see someone in a negative way? And I've been on the receiving end of that. I've observed that and then I've noticed that I'm a little bit cautious around that. And again, there's so many different examples we can use.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Sometimes it is important that somebody warns us from someone, right, because they've had certain experiences. It's kind of like that wolf in sheep, sheep's clothing experience where you go, oh no, they seem really lovely but we don't know that they're actually not. There's hidden agendas. Um, they're very charismatic because they're, they want to use you for something. And sometimes those honest conversations with people, um, done in a a mature way I'm going to keep using that word mature helps us to just be a little bit more aware, not necessarily completely guarded, but just aware of.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Okay, yeah, I'll take that on board, but I won't let it sway me completely, because I've had situations these are the ones that I found the absolute hardest People that I thought were my friends and I've invested in them and brought them into my world and done lots of things for them, enjoyed their company and then all of a sudden, for whatever reason, they have literally turned on me and then now they're speaking behind my back to people who do not know me at all and these people now have this negative perception of me, and when those things are out of my control, I personally really, really struggle with that.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I've had people lie about me behind my back. That one I do find the most difficult, because when somebody buys into a lie, it's like I don't feel like I can do anything with that, and in those moments I have always just said to myself you know what the truth comes out in the end? The truth comes out in the end. I still remember a particular situation where somebody had said to me I heard that you did this and said that, and I was like I never did any of that I never said any of that.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yes, you did. And I just remember going there is nothing I can do here, and I remember saying to that person you know what the truth will come out in the end. I think it took about 10 years before that person came back to me and apologized and said you were so right. That person then went on to lie about this and that, and so they're difficult moments to be on the receiving end of friendships that go sour because somebody has introduced a lie, for whatever reason.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, whatever reason that they've got going on. And you were right when you said just taking a few steps back, when you did say that sometimes a person's giving you a really valid warning.

Fiona Kane:

Sometimes they are, so definitely we're not saying ignore when people say something to you, but essentially any new information that you get, it's just always assess it and what you might do is you might say, all right, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'm just going to park it, put it over there in the corner and I'm going to just watch the evolving situation and then maybe I'll just be a little bit careful until I'm a bit more certain. And sometimes, over time, what you find is what you were just saying there, that over time you see that person come, like you see that person, with the same pattern over and over again and they're talking about everyone and they say so. There's people who just nasty and like to go around talking about everybody and making up things and whatever, and there's people who say, look, this has been my experience. I will just keep an eye out for this situation. You know, and and I've certainly done that I've I've contacted people to tell, to warn them about people, because I think sometimes that is the case, that it's you should do that, but I don't do that all the time, but I just do that in a handful of situations where I really know that someone is well, is that like wolf in sheep's clothing, someone who seems wonderful and you know, because sometimes there are people who are really good at they go into relationships and they love bomb in a relationship and they, and you know, love bombing is like where you, oh, you're so wonderful and you're so wonderful and, oh, I love being your friend and you're the best and you're so, and and they affirm you and everything and they support you and everything and that is your best friend, and then then suddenly they're not, you know. So sometimes when you're in that situation, it can be hard to see who they truly are.

Fiona Kane:

And I've been in that situation myself where I've been the one being love bombed and I've fallen for it and I'm quite a. I'm quite how would you say it? Yeah, well, two things. So one, I've always been, I have always had a really good intuition and being quite perceptive. But secondly also, I would say I'm quite what's the word for it? I'm trying to think of the word I, I don't trust really cautious and uh, and so I I've been and I've. So I was really surprised when I found myself in this situation, when I realised I'd been in this situation, because I always thought that, oh, I would see that and I would know that.

Fiona Kane:

But you don't always even when you are, you know so, like I'm quite, I can be quite critical and quite distrusting in a lot of situations, and I got sort of love-bombed by someone in my life, and that really came back to bite me later on. So, yeah, friendship's a tricky thing, and listening to people is a tricky thing. At the end of the day, though, I think when you build up using your intuition, you get better and better at knowing how to, how to recognize these things and when you can trust what, the information that someone tells you, and when not to.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I think it'd be good to maybe expand on what you just talked about with the love bombing concept. What does that actually look like? What was your unfolding experience, so that your listeners can perhaps have a bit more wisdom in recognizing when this could be actually happening.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, this happens. It didn't happen to me in a romantic relationship. This is where it often does happen.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

So it's worth knowing that.

Fiona Kane:

But it's like someone comes into your life and they just shower, like they shower everything on you all the good stuff. So it's like someone comes into your life and they just shower, like they shower everything on you all the good stuff. So it's like they come in with fairy dust and they're like oh, you're so wonderful, you're so great, oh, you're so inspiring, or like whatever. Whatever version of that works for you, depending on the situation. So if it was a romantic thing, it would be. You know, you're so beautiful and you're so gorgeous and and you know I can't believe that I've met the love of my life and and you know, blah, blah, blah, and you're better than all the other girls, or like whatever the situation. So there's obviously varies depending on the type of relationship, but essentially they love, bomb you, they want to be your best friend straight away, they want to be with, with you all of the time. They can't be apart from you.

Fiona Kane:

And actually in personal relationships this often entails where the guy can have the other way around. The ones I've heard about are where, say, a guy will buy you a really expensive, say, iphone or something. You're like, oh my God, he's just given me like a $3,000 phone. He must love me and it's because he wants to track you and control you. It's not because he loves you, you know. So they'll say, oh, I'll pick you up, I'll pick you up from work, oh, I'll pick you up, I'll drive you there, I'll take it. And you think, oh, wow, that's great, he's so caring, he cares about me, he wants to drive me Isn't that great? And that's obviously buying someone a phone or picking up someone from work they're not bad things.

Fiona Kane:

However, in some of these situations, what's behind it is a negative thing. It's when someone suddenly is, and so it happened to me and it was kind of in a more of a work situation where this person loved me and you're so great, you're so wonderful and you're going to do so great and we're going to make this happen, and blah, blah, blah and uh, and I really believed it and it is um, I think to. What happens is these people learn what your vulnerabilities are very quickly. Yes, yes, and they use them against you. So you know, I was in a situation where I was feeling really vulnerable. I was really stepping out of my comfort zone, doing something really hard. So having someone come along and say I've got you, yes, I've got this, you're speaking about one of my own personal experiences?

Fiona Kane:

Yes, it feels good and it's like, oh, I want. Yes, it feels good and it's like, oh, I want, whether it be in your personal life, your professional life or however, wherever this is that it's really hard to change it by that point.

Fiona Kane:

So what I did is I pretended to not see it, because it was just too hard and also I just had, like the time, there was a whole lot of other stuff going in my life that made it really challenging. So I chose to not see what I could see and pretend it wasn't there, and so I played that game with myself for a long time until, you know, I had no choice and I had to deal with it. But yeah, that was kind of my experience and by ignoring that I caused a lot of damage to myself and to the situation, the business situation I was in. So I'd warn people not to do that, but that's what I did. And so, even though I'm the person that's intuitive and I understand these things and all, this cynical.

Fiona Kane:

I had that happen to me and I allowed it to happen and, yeah, it took a long time to do something about it, so have you got a similar experience?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Oh goodness me. And we could go for way longer if I told you the entire thing. However, I think at the end of these experiences that you're sharing that you know I've got a few of my own I often conclude people come into our life and we've all heard this saying. And people come into our life and we've all heard this saying. Excuse me, people come into our life for a reason, a season or a lifetime, and when these friendships come to an end, it's like some of them are really hard, because sometimes you're like I thought that was going to be a forever friendship. I really did. You know, we've known each other for so long or we just hit it off and we were so there for each other and then all of a sudden, like that, they're gone.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And for me, who invests so heavily or, I would say, used to invest so heavily I'd be heartbroken. I literally would be heartbroken. I wouldn't be able to sleep, just like constantly reflecting on what did I do wrong, Like I want to know what I did wrong so I don't do that again. But then when I realise I can put it in almost a bucket maybe they were just in my life for a reason. And when I see it from that perspective then it's like okay, what was that reason? Well, you know, I guess they got me to step out of my comfort zone. They got me to do things I never would have done without them. So it's like I can now genuinely say I'm grateful for them coming into my life for that reason. Or maybe I can go no, it's the season bucket. They literally came into my life for that reason. Or maybe I can go no, it's the season bucket. They literally came into my life for that season of my life. And these are all the great things that we did in that season that I can now be grateful for.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And what I've learnt out of some of the really, really hard times where friendships have come to an end is recognising and this is really confronting that I had a lack of boundaries. And I didn't see it as a lack of boundaries, I just saw it as being very inclusive and loving and caring and helpful and all these great things. But I didn't realise I hadn't, up until that point, being burnt a couple of times, have healthy boundaries. So when I feel like there's a friendship that just is blossoming organically, the, the desire is to just bring them close, and I've learned not to do that, that that it's better not to do that, because it's almost like a bit of a testing of the friendship. Can they cope with these boundaries, Can they respect my boundaries? And if they can do that, then yeah, we can have, you know, a friendship, we can start a friendship.

Fiona Kane:

And actually that's a clue to what I was talking about the people who love bomb you and then later on they take advantage of friendship.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and actually that's a clue to that, what I was talking about the people who love bomb you and then later on they take advantage of you. A classic example of that kind of person is they do not accept boundaries of any kind. So if you have someone that you know and you think, oh, and you're working hard constantly, you feel like every day you're having to put the boundary in again and say, no, I'm not available, or no, I'm not going to do that, or no, I can't do that, or no, whatever it is. And they nod and smile and go along with whatever you say. But you can tell they're kind of going la, la, la, la, la, yeah, yeah, fingers in their ears, they're not listening to you, and then five seconds later they're ignoring that, completely ignoring that boundary. And so the person that you find that is just totally ignoring your boundary, well, they are actually actively ignoring your boundaries and there's a clue there.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

That's right, and I think some of the things that I've learnt along the way that I really hope this podcast helps other people to avoid some of the difficult things that we may have gone through up until this point is their motivations is all about them and what they can get out of it, not what they can bring to it.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Now it's some of the people that I think of. In the past they brought a lot of things to the friendship right that I was so grateful for, but I didn't realise it was like it wasn't unconditional. It got to a point where it's almost like they have concluded well, I have given you so much, now we stop and now it is all about me, me, me, me, me, me, and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, I thought this was a mutual thing, I was helping with this and you were helping with that, but then it's like this line gets crossed where it's like now it is all about them, and if you don't have healthy boundaries, if you don't comply to what they want, in that moment it can all go really, really bad, and there's been a few examples for me where it's gone really, really bad yeah, and, and it's not like and I suppose it goes without saying, but it's not equal all the time, as in, obviously we have different needs at different times.

Fiona Kane:

So you'll be going through something with a friend and they're, you know, they've got a sick. I suppose it goes without saying, but it's not equal all the time, as in, obviously we have different needs at different times. So you'll be going through something with a friend and they've got a sick child or they've got something happening, and of course, in that case their needs are really high and your needs aren't so important at that time.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Or enough. You've had a terrible loss in your family.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

You don't have anything to give out of your cup. It's empty.

Fiona Kane:

You know you're going through the grief of course that happens, and of course it's not like it's not perfectly balanced the whole time, and so it's not about it's not going to be perfectly balanced all the time, but it's more that just like it's balanced in a reasonable way that when they can when they can, yeah, and, and you need support there, they help you.

Fiona Kane:

and when you can and they need support, they help you. That's right. And when you can and they need support, you help them, you know. So it's not like you get out your you know, because some people kind of get out the spreadsheet and I don't think it's like you don't get out your measuring cup and your spreadsheet, but ultimately it should feel like you both are supported.

Fiona Kane:

And if it feels like one person is doing all of the giving and the other person's doing all the taking and that's the only way the relationship works, uh, then there's a clue there as well, and it often are the ones where it starts with the love bombing in the beginning. So they do give in the beginning, to, to, to get your trust. So in the beginning they're, they're all over you like a rash and they and they quite generous, especially these men who, in these toxic relationships, they'll be the guy who brings the flowers and the chocolates and this and that. And again, it's not bad bringing flowers and chocolates, but it can be the one who does so much in the beginning that you know he does all that just to get what he wants and then, once he gets what he wants, he's done.

Fiona Kane:

But you're right with what you said and I've shared with you, and I have shared this on the podcast, and I don't go into a lot of detail because I want to be respectful of that friend, but I had a friendship of 40 years end last year and that was very painful for me and I struggled with that one quite a lot and ultimately, without going into the detail, because I want to protect this person's situation, I don't know. I think that this person had what they believed to be valid reasons. I don't necessarily completely agree with those reasons and I think that some of the thinking around it is flawed. Personally, however, I do believe that person thinks they're doing you know, in inverted commas the right thing. Yeah, and it's sad for me, though, because it is sad when you know someone for 40 years, and this is someone who was in my inner circle.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

so someone who I was very close to.

Fiona Kane:

And someone who. There is something about this. Why sort of siblings are important to me as well? There's something about the people who saw you grow up, people who saw your struggles when you were growing up. There's something about those people who know you so well, right so, the person who saw all of the struggles I went through in my childhood, in my teen years, and the person who saw how hard it was for me to you know, make something of my life, the person who, the person who went through my obsession with Duran Duran and all of my other obsessions over the years, uh, and the person who's been through all of your you know all of the boyfriend stories and all of that kind of you know. The person who's been through all that, that person who knows you deeply and who knows what kind of human being you are. When that person starts telling a different story to themselves about who you are, what kind of person you are, that is really hurtful and that is really hard, and so I found that way. It's heartbreaking, it's literally heartbreaking.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

It is heartbreaking. You're talking about a level of intimacy and people often refer to intimacy. As you know, within a marriage, um, intimacy is where you share your heart with somebody, where you share your innermost secrets with somebody. Like that's intimacy and that takes time to develop and, like you said, over 40 years, you would think that that's a trusted, safe space. Yes, and when those friendships come to an end, it it literally changes you as well. Yeah, like you can't. Your life's not functioning the same.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

It's almost like a death yeah like you, you are now going through the grieving experience.

Fiona Kane:

It was a grief and there's, it's one thing to, for sometimes friendships just fizzle out. Maybe you're just in different phases, like it's. It's, like you said, different phases of life, whatever. So sometimes it's that and that's. I find that less painful, because that's a little bit more okay.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, we're in a different place right now that's fine, yeah, but when it's like actively, I will not be your friend because you are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, uh, that is really painful and that is really really hard. Or when, like you were saying before, like I have had people in the past make up stories about me completely, absolutely out of thin air, make up stuff about me, about my character and about what sort of person I am, and they are the ones that hit the hardest. Because I think the first time that someone tells a really like bold lie like that about you and if you believe you are a person of good character and who's honest, the first few times it happens it kind of really wipes you, because it just floors you, because you just cannot believe it wipes you because you just it floors you, because you just cannot believe it.

Fiona Kane:

Over time, though, you do learn that it happens, these things happen, and at a certain point you have to accept that that person has their reasons and whatever's going on for them, whether or not they're trying to get something out of it, whether or not they're jealous of you, whether or not they've got something else going on in their life completely, and they can't see the forest for the trees because they're too caught up in whatever else is going.

Fiona Kane:

That's the thing too. We don't always know what is going on for these other people or what's behind it, and there's at a certain point it's hard to sing like. I have this conversation with my clients all the time, trying to tell them like to not take it personally. How do you not take it personally when it's about you? But sometimes it's about you, and sometimes it might seem like it's about you, but it's not really about you. It's about the other thing that's going on for that person. That's about something bigger than that. So at a certain point you need to. I mean, obviously, look if you're, if this is happening to you over and over and over and over and over again that's right.

Fiona Kane:

There might be a clue that you're not making good choices about friendships, or maybe you're not a good friend, right? So it's not to ever like. Obviously, it is always worth examining. Well, what went on here, what happened, what was my part in it? We do have to look at what our part in it was, because we always have some part in it in some way, whatever that looks like.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, you know. So it's like if you see patterns, it's just good to see what, what are?

Fiona Kane:

we always have some part in it in some way, whatever that looks like. So it's like if you see patterns, it's just good to see what are the patterns. Are the patterns I make bad choices about who I trust, or are the patterns that I'm not a really good friend? I don't know. I could be either. I could be both, who knows?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, and I think you raise a really good point, fiona, because some of those reasons of why something might reoccur might not even be bad. It might not even be that you're a bad friend. It might be, like I was saying earlier, maybe you're too trusting too quickly and you keep doing that and so you're not reading the friendship or the individual accurately or maybe, like me, me, don't have healthy boundaries in place. So when I don't have healthy boundaries in place with these people, it goes where I don't want it to go. And so ever since probably the last experience that we had where something went really, really, really bad and I remember we even went and saw a counsellor as a family about it, worried about a situation and this person was really direct and straight with us and said you don't have health, you have not ever cultivated healthy boundaries. And it was like this big, I don't know like neon sign where we finally saw oh, we've played a big part in this.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Now, if you knew the story, you might go no, you didn't. No, you didn't. It's like no, no, it's what you're talking about, fiona. What are the patterns? Yes, you know, maybe it is for you. Every friendship ends badly. And, yeah, maybe you aren't being a good friend, or maybe throughout the seasons you keep attracting that one person and you're not reading it properly, and then it keeps ending the same way, and I'd like to think after our last scenario and really understand the importance of boundaries. We have been able to avoid any further experiences like that.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah, and look, I think that you keep getting experiences in life till you. Learn the lesson.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yes, and so if you do have a repeating experience, look at what's going on and I've said this.

Fiona Kane:

I think I even said it in the last episode, but it's worth sort of repeating that sometimes people get confused about what boundaries are. But boundaries are not necessarily because people see them as being fences, but boundaries are where you decide what is sacred in your life and you protect the sacred. Yeah, and the sacred is generally it's your family, your health, you know you yourself, and time as well. Your family, your health, you know you yourself. And time as well. Sorry, your time, yes, yes, Definitely your time.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

You do your own time.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, and so what you're doing is you really just protect those. So there's a difference between protecting those and putting walls up. Sometimes it might require a wall, but it's not necessarily about walls. What it is about is protecting what's sacred to you and understanding that, and understanding what your values are and what your family values are, and what you're doing is, ultimately, the choices you make are to protect that. So that's actually what boundaries are, as opposed to just putting walls up. It's not kind of. Some people sometimes get confused with what that is, and many of us don't, especially people who are people pleaser types. So if you're a people pleaser type, then you certainly it's hard to have boundaries because you want everyone to love you and so because of that, you'll let people yes, I'll do that, yes, I'll do that, yes, yes, yes, yes. And what we don't? People with healthy boundaries learn how to say no, yeah, absolutely, and no can be a full sentence.

Fiona Kane:

It's not like no, because I've got to make up some reason that I've got to be able to you know, and I've talked about this before, but it's quite funny.

Fiona Kane:

I learned that lesson from hey. So I haven't watched Friends at all, except for when it first came out. So I watched it when it first. So it's been 20 years or something, right? Yeah, I watched the whole thing, never watched it again. I never felt the need to watch it again, but it was fun at the time, right? Yeah, but there was one episode that stayed with me forever, yeah, and I can't even remember the whole episode, but all I remember was Joey was moving house and he needed people to help him move house.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Is this the lounge scene? Oh, no, no, that's when they bought the lounge.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, I can't remember exactly what it was about, but he was moving house and he was asking for helpers. Yeah, and so you know, everyone's lined up and he's asking them all can you help me? And they're, oh no, I've got to work Like all these kind of trying to come up with good reasons why they could get out of it. Yeah, and I guess to Phoebe, and she says no, I don't want to. Yes, that's right.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

She says no.

Fiona Kane:

I don't want to. Yeah, and it's still like that kind of hit me as like all right, you can say that, yes, I don't know it might have been a comedy, and it might have been. You know, she was that what you'd call. When you look at the personality trait, different types of personalities, she's what you'd call a disagreeable character.

Fiona Kane:

And that's not a bad thing. Being disagreeable is not a bad thing. It's not in a negative form. It just means that you don't feel the need to please everyone, and I was just blown away. I just thought well, you can just say no. You can even say no, I don't want to.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, that's right. That was a revelation. That's the best of a friendship, isn't it? No, I don't want to. We're basically being your friend.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, so we can actually do that and we can be honest. And if you're to have a friendship with someone, you need to say yes to every single thing, and because when we say yes to everything for everybody else, we essentially are saying no to ourselves and no to our families and no to our own needs. So if you have a friend that needs you to do that, you might want to question that as well, that if someone requires you to say no to yourself constantly, that might not be a healthy friendship.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, that's right, and I've just forgotten what I was about to say there. It'll come back to me. Just to add to with friendships it's, you know, almost putting friendship like doing a. What do we call it when we're looking through something Like an audit, pardon, edit, audit.

Fiona Kane:

Audit. Yeah, I always talk about life audits and energy audits and things like that.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, like it's really important to do a friendship audit, a family audit audit, a family audit. And a coach of mine, chris, he used to talk about this, putting people into columns. So who, out of all the people you do life with, when you leave them, you feel energized from right. They've contributed something. Not they've done something, but it's just their energy, who they are, what they've said. You always feel energised from these people, you know. Pop them in a column because they're the people that, because our time is valuable, they're the people you want to fill your life up with. Yes, not fill your life up with the other column, which is who are all the people that drain you? Yes, that when you leave them, you're like, oh, thank goodness, like that was just so exhausting.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And some people you can perhaps you see them intentionally less. Sometimes, with this audit too, it's helpful to go. You know what this person actually isn't good for me or my family, and so I am actually going to refrain from having them in our life all together. Sometimes those people are family and you can't get out of that. And so, again, it's respecting yep, there's this party that we all go to every year and realizing you don't have to stay with that person in that corner and let them talk and be negative or whatever it is for the whole party. You can just be polite and have a small amount of time with them and then walk away and go and hang out with the family that you really do enjoy spending time with.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, I call those people energy-sucking vampires and I sometimes spend a lot of time with my clients teaching them how to manage those kinds of people in their life. And one of the ways they suck your energy is by eliciting an emotional response from you somehow. And once they get that emotional response, say they plug in. It's a bit like they're walking around with their phone cable ready to charge up, they plug in. So the emotional response it might be that person that says, oh, you've put on weight. Or oh, I wouldn't have dealt with like a parenting thing, I wouldn't have dealt with it that way. But oh well, you do your thing.

Fiona Kane:

Or you know, I heard you changed your job. What was wrong with the other one, or whatever? Like whatever it is, but the person who knows how to make that kind of snarky comment, or they might be talking about someone else or doing something, but if they're trying to get you emotionally engaged and they're trying to do it often in a negative way there's a clue there, because once they get you emotionally engaged and they just plug in and they suck life out of you.

Fiona Kane:

So I teach my clients how to respond to those different things and how to just not even engage with it. There's ways that you can kind of be polite but just not engage with it. So you just keep the conversation moving, or you go oh look, there's a butterfly, have you noticed the weather? Or you just pretend you didn't hear it. Whatever you do, but you don't have to engage, that's also knowing that you don't always have to engage with everything that comes that is brought to your attention.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

You don't have to engage with all of it yeah, yeah, I think, um, it might be also helpful to continue on what you just said, and that is giving people some little tips on how do you manage these sorts of people, because the people pleasers in the room will just sit there and be polite and just listen and listen and feel like there's no way out of that or the people who don't know how to say no, like giving them a few tips on on what they could perhaps do. I know I will often because I'm the people pleaser and I don't want to have anybody feel jarred or displaced or whatever. So I like to use the word pause and I do this with my own children. You know they're watching television and it's time for dinner. Instead of saying, right, stop, turn the TV off. And there's like a jarring experience for them. And now they're annoyed and angry and it's just like I'll come in in, I'll say can I just get you to pause for a moment?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And it's the same when somebody's like, and you're like, ah, I don't know when to interrupt and I don't want to listen to this for forever, and it's just about being able to say can I just get you to pause for a moment? You know, and it might. It's been really great chatting to you. I do have somebody else that I want to catch up with, or can we catch up with this and finish the conversation later? And it gives you an exit strategy.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

It's also the same with when you run into somebody and but you're on a bit of a time limit and you're like, oh, you want to say, oh, I have to go, I have to go, but you just stay there for longer and now you're getting later and later. It's like how do you respectfully stop that conversation and again to just be able to say, can I just pause you for a second? I'm on my way to an appointment. It'd be great, you know, if we continue this conversation another time and you don't have to finish that conversation, right, but it's more. You're giving yourself that break and that space to just get on and respect your own time.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, and the I need to go to the bathroom. One is always a good one too, especially if you're a fashion or or something, because you know, because when you usually, by the time you come out, you talk to someone else.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yes, that's right, you talk to someone else and it works out really really well for you. I'm going to remember that one. Next time we're talking, Fiona, and you go oh, just going to go to the bathroom, Kelly, I'll be like, oh, I've just talked too much again.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, just talk too much again. Yeah, yeah, or sometimes it might be look, I'm expecting an important phone call. I just had to go out and check my phone, or or I have to make a phone call. I just I promised the person I'd ring at this time, whatever, so you could make up something like that, you could. Or just like you know, I, like you said, I, you know, it's just politely, like I don't want to be impolite, but I did promise fred that I'd go on.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah.

Fiona Kane:

Because I was going to give Fred advice about his computer or like whatever it is. That's right that you make up, but the other thing too is it's less. Those people don't want to talk to you as much if you don't buy in. Yeah.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

That's right. The negative stories. It's the way you have the conversation.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, so if you kind of, if they kind of try and get you emotionally entangled and you're like, oh, what you know? Or if it's like they try and get you to be defending yourself oh, you know, really, I'm eating all right and I'm not really fat, or whatever. The thing is that they're whatever little barb that they do, or you know you're defending your parenting or something like that. So if they get you defending that sort of stuff or engaging in that, they, they get a lot out of that. Yeah, so it's also to with those people.

Fiona Kane:

I like to keep conversations very surface level and I will not delve into stuff I will find a way to move it along yeah, I move it along to the next thing. I even move away or I move it along to, but I just essentially I make myself a very boring person to talk to. I'm very boring and strategy yeah, and if they find you boring, they go looking for someone else as well.

Fiona Kane:

So, eventually, when they don't get what they want from you, they will go looking for someone else. But initially, what they will do, though, especially if this person's used to using you to power themselves up essentially, when you first sort of start refusing that person or saying no to that person or stepping away, you have to know that their first strategy is not going to be to accept that. Their first strategy is going to be to shame you because they are getting something from that relationship. You're not, but they are, and they don't want that to change, because it's like they get. You know, it's like your kid. If you do everything for your child, if you run around after your child and pick everything up and clean everything up, and they think that there's just a washing fairy and they don't know where clothes come from, you know, if you do that forever, they've got no incentive just to learn. Why are they going to learn? Well, I've got the magic cleaning fairy I'm not gonna wear that you know,

Fiona Kane:

cool, you know. So it's the same thing with these people, right? If you've got someone service, service, servicing or serving a thing in your life, you don't want to disrupt that, and the hardest thing to do is to go and find somebody else to do it for you. So the easiest thing to do is keep that person doing it. And so the first thing that happens is when you try and say no to these people and when you try and not engage, they will. It'll often get a bit worse before it gets better. Yeah, yeah, because what they will do is they'll shame you. Oh, don't worry, I'll find someone else to do it.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, that's right oh, I know I don't mean that much to you, or yeah? I didn't think I was asking too much like oh, you know, like that some like, some comment like that. So just know that that's usually what they'll start with yeah, yeah, and that is at.

Fiona Kane:

That is a strategy yes and that is a strategy to shame you back into the behavior that works for them when you know that they're, when you actively know that they're doing that and they're going to do that, and I hear that rather than being shamed by it.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Now I'm kind of like oh okay, yeah, yeah, and isn't it interesting sometimes we don't realise that that's happening and we don't actually realise that we can be empowered in that moment to not play that game. I think it's more around realising oh, I found myself engaged in a bit of a game here, right, yes?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I'm not playing and I I have had moments where I've been sucked into a situation and then it's almost like I've seen the light and I'm like, oh gosh, I didn't realize that this is what they're doing, and it's like I then can see it for what it is. And now they're not getting the same response at all. And so I think screening friendships is really important too. Testing friendships, you know, be comfortable enough in yourself to say and do whatever you know you want to do, and if they don't like it, then with you just being your raw, natural self, that's actually a good thing. Don't get so desperate to hold on to friendships if they just can't accept you the way you are, because that's not fun either, being a friend where you've got to watch what you wear and what you do and what you say and you're walking on eggshells. You don't ever want to have a friend where you feel like you're doing that.

Fiona Kane:

No, no, definitely not. And you know, if you have to, if you can't be yourself in a friendship, that's not really, that's not a real friendship. And I mean there's different levels, obviously. You know this whole like you don't have to be yourself in every situation, but with good friends you can, you know.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

So you know to a certain degree, because these days people kind of oh, be yourself, it's like well, no, actually you know, if you're a work and you're a counselor or you're a bank clerk or whatever, you can't really fully be yourself there and it's okay.

Fiona Kane:

So, exactly right, and it's knowing what when to share and when to, but with good, close friendships you actually should be able to be all of who you are. And a good friendship to me is one where I can show up in whatever however I am, and I saw that a lot like when, um, when my mother was dying and I was kind of quite a mess for a long time. Before and after. I would just show up and I'd literally drag myself there and I'd be crying for half the conversation with the person and I would look like crap and I would, you know whatever, and I had to have friends that were okay with. That's what showed up yeah, and.

Fiona Kane:

I didn't have to go and pretend, and so that's where I very quickly saw who were my friends and who were not. The people who needed me to kind of pretend I was okay and not talk about anything depressing or sad, and the people who were okay with me showing up and being where I was at.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

You know you, just you sharing that just reminded me of another example of a friendship that I thought was going to last a lifetime but in reflection was just a seasonal friendship and I'd gone through something really, really difficult and somebody that I wasn't that close with reached out to me and I remember she gave me flowers and she would just ring and just check in on me and she visited a couple of times. And this other friend that I thought was a really good friend, I just remember thinking where is she? Like, if there's one time that I thought a friend would be here, it would be this friend and this particular person. I remember they rang and it was nice to talk to them, but I was a bit curious as to why it had been so long with what I'd gone through. And I remember her saying oh I just thought you'd be over it by now and I was like if I was to share what it was people would be like how does somebody just click their fingers and get over that?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And that was the first clue for me that this person was not in my life for what she could give. It was absolutely all about what she could take. And I remember, on reflection, one of the first things she wanted to know was who I was friends with. Now, that wasn't a clue at that point. I was just like, oh okay, this, this, this and this. And then, like I said, on reflection I realised she was only friends with who I was and who I was connected with and what she could potentially get out of that.

Fiona Kane:

It's like the mean girls at school. Yeah, I fell for that. I fell for that You're friends with the queen bee or anyone in that surround. Anyone who I can get access to is like I only want to be friends and that's what actually must be really, really hard. I always sort of talk about how hard it must be to have friendships, to make friendships and to keep them if you are, you know, like a taylor swift of the world absolutely absolutely no one's coming into it out of for nothing.

Fiona Kane:

they all want something from you, so they want money or connections, or they just want to be even just close to the fame, because they all have fame, so amazing. But that would be like you can imagine how hard it is for the average person with friendships. That's like on steroids the level of difficulty there with being able to have friendships, isn't it? And then imagine having a friendship where they're selling your story to the Daily Mail or something, so you share something with them.

Fiona Kane:

The next thing, you know, it's the front of the newspaper, your story about whatever you know, that's right, and I often will sadly be.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

you know working with people who've become a widow or they've gone through a nasty divorce that was so unexpected and out of the blue and often when that happens it's later down the track.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

So you've accumulated assets or maybe you've built a huge empire of a business and then now it's time for you to go back into the dating world. I always say to these people be really, really wise on what you share, because you come with this huge amount of wealth behind you. You do not want people to know that straight away at all, because when you know wealthy men or wealthy women, you don't know the agenda behind that person. Is it they're only wanting the friendship because of what you can give them, or is it they're only wanting to build a relationship with you because of what they can get access to? You'll really be screening those people and being confident enough to test those people. Yes, they don't know that you've come with all of that and you play things down and maybe you go somewhere humble for dinner or whatever, and if that's not impressing them, then there's there's another little clue for you.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, and so it's not easy.

Fiona Kane:

There was a famous video that went around was it last year or something, a TikTok video where this woman was like filming a date, like she went on a date with this guy and she started filming and she was sitting in the car I think I can't remember it was in the US and he stopped at some restaurant she thought was kind of like lower class restaurant and she was sitting in the car saying I'm not going in there, I'm not doing like. She absolutely cracked it and this guy was like are you serious? She's like no, take me home, I'm not going to go there, whatever. And and um. And eventually he said well, you know, if it's like that, I think I'll just, I think I just will take you home, blah, blah, blah. She's oh, no, no, no she. You know, I just it was a good, a good way to see in, probably a good thing to do. If you are really really rich. Don't take them whining and dining in Paris. Take them to absolutely and see how they carry on that's right.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Well, sometimes too, fiona, it can be the opposite, and I remember a tragic, tragic story of a single mum who and this is probably about 25 years ago now single mum who went through a nasty divorce was managed to buy out her husband and keep the family home, and she was really close to paying that off and she hadn't dated for a long time time. And this one night she stayed at home, she was in her pajamas and her friends are like come on out, come on out. And she's like no, no, I'm in my pajamas anyway. They persuaded her to come out and, um, she went to a particular pub and she met this guy that she wasn't interested in at all and he's asking for a number and stuff and she just kind of shut it all down. She returned to work and got the biggest bunch of roses she's ever seen from this man that she did not give her details to and she's like she's ringing her friends going.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I can't believe that. But how does he know where I work? Well, one of the friends told him. And so next minute this guy is lavishing upon her right, taking her to expensive restaurants and flowers nearly every day, and then you know they sort of something blossoms and he's taking her to all these expensive resorts and then he's proposing right, and she's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like this is just all too fast.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

But he manages to persuade her and so now they're planning a wedding and you know, deposits he could put down, but when it came to paying for the full wedding he didn't actually have the money, but she was led to believe that he was really, really wealthy. And then, just before the wedding, he confessed that the money that was going to come through hadn't come through, and anyway, but she's like smitten with him now. And so they get married and everything seems lovely and on their wedding anniversary, 12 months later, he hands divorce papers to her. It was a scam the entire time. He was after half of her home and he got it. Yeah, he managed to get it.

Fiona Kane:

There's worse stories than that now, with these Nigerian people. Some of these women go to these countries to meet the man and they get murdered. So it is quite and.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I think it's our responsibility to start educating the next generation, because I don't know if it's social media helps us to see just how dangerous the world maybe has always been, or whether it's more dangerous because people are coming up with all these horrific ideas, or whether it's more dangerous because people are coming up with all these horrific ideas. But it is our job to educate the younger generation as to be really, really cautious and careful and do not be so insecure. Sorry, I just cut you off.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, no, you can't trust everything people say. It's as simple as that. So the kind of advice about with friendships to take it slowly and if someone is taking it faster than you're comfortable with, that's. That's the love bombing thing I was talking about right, so when?

Fiona Kane:

it's going at a speed and a rate and like when someone's like so in love with you and intensely in love with you within five seconds, that kind of thing. There's a conclusion that when someone takes things at a faster pace than you're comfortable with, and they love bombing you. I think there's a lot of clues in that yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely and um.

Fiona Kane:

Before we finish up, though, there's something else, because I know we're kind of pushing with time, uh, and look, this could go so many directions. We obviously we need to do another one because we've got so much we could talk about. But uh, what I did want to uh talk about was just our own friendship. I just wanted to sort of talk about something in regards to that, because I think it's an important thing for people to understand. So, when we're talking about this is, yeah, obviously, be wary and be careful and take things slow, whatever. But uh, the other thing too is kind of sometimes it's like name the elephant in the room, because I think at a certain point you and I had a conversation, because we kind of just had this, like it was uncomfortable.

Fiona Kane:

There's a bit of discomfort there, like we didn't hate on each other nothing like that, it was just like a bit uncomfortable and I think one day you named it or I named one of us just pointed out.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I think you might have. You might have, yeah, yeah, I think you were really transparent and and honest and humble, and I think both of us were really humble in that moment.

Fiona Kane:

So I wouldn't have a conversation where I kind of said these were all the preconceived ideas I had about you, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I was viewing you through this lens. So all these preconceived ideas I had about you, yeah, yeah, and I was viewing you through this lens through all these preconceived ideas, this is who. I thought you were.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah yeah, and there was bits of like where I just wasn't sure, yeah, and so I didn't feel like I could trust you and you had your version of that as well, yeah yeah, and that was a really beautiful moment really, and I guess they're the examples of testing a friendship you know, and it wasn't even like you were pursuing a friendship.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

It was, like we said, circumstantial. We now found ourselves, you know, kind of working together in this space, but it was a really good testing moment. Am I going to be absolutely offended and angry at you or go into a defence mode of myself, or am I going to actually acknowledge that moment as somebody's being really honest with me here, and so let's build a friendship from this place of honesty. This is who you are, this is who I am, and as a result of that, for us that's turned into something where we can have very different conversations now than we might have in the past, from a position of trust. Now you and I aren't living in each other's pockets. We also understand each other as to what we agree on, what we might not agree on, and there's just this beautiful mutual respect.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, exactly, and being able to, for us been able to say this is how I viewed you and this is why that's a useful learning tool as well, because it is good to know how other people view you. It doesn't mean they're right and I was very honest about you know, my glasses are affected by so, as in you know we all have. We all look at things through a certain lens, absolutely. And that lens relates to our background and you know a whole bunch of things it might be about stories you've heard about someone, whatever it is.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah.

Fiona Kane:

So understanding that person's looking through a lens and their lens might not be accurate, yeah, but it's still useful to hear or have someone reflect back to you what their experience of you is or how they see you.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Fiona Kane:

You don't have to believe every bit of it or it's all true, but it is a useful thing to hear and know, and sometimes it can be, and I, for. For us, it was two things, I think. One it was a useful tool for me to acknowledge my bias and acknowledge the glasses I viewed things through, yep. But it's also an experience for us to acknowledge those things about us that we saw in each other or that we were unsure about with each other, because sometimes two things can be true at the same time.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I do remember feeling like there was that lack of trust and for me I didn't quite understand what that was, but it wasn't my business to understand it. And I also recognise can't be friends with everybody, like you know, and and that's, that's okay. Um, I just, I am really really grateful for what it's become like.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

It's really special and I think again, everything happens for a reason a season, a lifetime and I feel like you know who would have thought that those 10 years of not really knowing each other and having our biases or whatever, was actually going to become purpose-filled, because we're going to have a conversation on a podcast a decade down the track where it's super relevant and hopefully very helpful for everybody to listen to and not to write people off. I think that's you know, we might have a bad experience with somebody or they have a bad experience with us. That doesn't actually mean we've got to like, ah, stay away from that person because, like you said, you don't know what I'm going through, what I'm navigating, what I'm thinking, what lens I'm seeing the world through through this particular time. We might pause Just because my Technical issue.

Fiona Kane:

We're back, but you know, we were actually just talking about how you know. Yeah, we all have our lenses, that we see each other through and don't write people off necessarily. Understand that you don't always know what's going on for them.

Fiona Kane:

It's not about you, that's right I suppose one important thing out of our friendship that I've learned is you know, sometimes it's worth just naming the elephant in the room too yeah absolutely there's a discomfort in some, especially, like if it's someone that you don't care about, you don't have anything to do with and you don't want to do it, want to have any. Well, who cares what doesn't matter. But if it's someone that you have to work with or that you want to have a friendship with, then it is actually worth saying hey look, there's a bit of discomfort here and people can respond differently to that. Not everyone's going to respond well to that, so that's okay. So you just have to be prepared to go with whatever happens when you ask that question. But sometimes there can be with whatever happens when you ask that question. But sometimes there can be a real shift when you ask that question, and the shift could be that you find out they don't want anything to do with you and whatever.

Fiona Kane:

whatever it's like okay well, at least I know not to spend any energy there. Yeah yeah. Or it could be that you learn that you can create a valuable friendship based on a lot of trust, and you know that. So either could happen. So you have to understand that. But sometimes it's worth exploring something a little bit further if you feel like there's a bit of resistance or a bit of discomfort.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

And I think, too, people change, like we all change. We all mature, we all have our own experiences. So now we're forced to see things through a different perspective. And yeah, like we have talked about, protect yourself from certain people, but you don't write each other off. Worse, don't write yourself off.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

I think sometimes, if people can recognize that they've not been the nicest to be around for whatever purpose, don't't write yourself off and buy into the lie I'm a crap friend, I'm a terrible friend. No one's going to want to be friends with me because then you'll act out a certain way and that's not true at all. We change, we evolve, we get more mature, we get wiser. We acknowledge our own failings and where we've let people down, but we don't have to be defined by our past.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's all learning experience, isn't it? It is, it is. That feels like a nice place to leave it. Anything to add? Or you feel like that's, we're there.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Yeah, no, I think we're there and I agree. Maybe we could continue the conversation in another direction at another time.

Fiona Kane:

Yeah, I think we could go a million different directions, so I think we should definitely do that. Thank you so much, kellyanne. I've really appreciated having you on the podcast.

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on here. I think you're doing an amazing job. Amazing job and I think it's some of our most difficult experiences that we can actually use on these platforms to help other people. So it's being grateful for those hard times we go through, because they've got a purpose to them ultimately.

Fiona Kane:

Yes, yeah and look. I will put your contact details in the show notes, but if people are looking for you, where can they find you?

Kelly-Anne Cummings:

Probably straight to my website for now, and that's wlba4worklifebalanceacademycomau, and then they can reach me through that platform.

Fiona Kane:

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for being on today. Thank you, fiona, you're amazing, and thank you for everyone at home not? Please like? Subscribe, share rate and review the podcast. All of those things make a difference and please subscribe. I hear that 80% of people who watch and listen to this podcast they're not subscribers. Why not? Well, I think we should do something about that. So click on the bells or whatever it is on on your whatever app you're listening to or watching this on, so that you subscribe, and that will help other people learn more and find more, and I like to have real conversations about things that matter here, and people will get to learn from that if they know about the podcast, and they'll only know about it when people start talking about it and sharing it. So, thank you so much and thanks again, kellyanne Pleasure. See you all next week. Thank you, bye.

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Fiona Kane

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