The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane
Real Conversations about things that Matter
All things life and health - physical health, nutrition, mindset, mental health, connection plus society and culture with Fiona Kane, experienced and qualified Nutritionist, Holistic Counsellor and Mind Body Eating Coach
Frank discussions about how to achieve physical and mental well being.
I talk about all things wellness including nutrition, exercise, physical and mental health, relationships, connections, grief, success and failure and much more.
Some episodes are my expertise as a nutritionist and holistic counsellor and some are me chatting to other experts or people with interesting health or life stories. My goal is to give you practical and useful info to improve your health and tidbits that you may find inspiring and that may start discussions within your circle of friend/family.
The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane
Healthy Masculinity vs Toxic Masculinity: (What’s the Real Difference?) | Ep. 118
Healthy Masculinity vs Toxic Masculinity – what’s the real difference, and why does it matter more than ever? In this powerful episode of The Wellness Connection, Fiona Kane sits down with Alison D'Vine, a social worker and founder of WA’s only private Men’s Behaviour Change Program, to unpack the truth behind modern masculinity.
Together, they explore how boys and men are shaped by online culture, what draws them to figures like Andrew Tate, and why the conversation around masculinity has become so polarised. From the influence of incel communities to the importance of rites of passage, they dive deep into the challenges facing young men today - and how society, parents, and professionals can respond with compassion, structure, and support.
Whether you're a parent, educator, or simply curious about the current masculinity debate, this episode offers grounded insights, respectful discussion, and real solutions.
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The Beat of Nature
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection podcast with Fiona Kane. Today I have a guest again and her name is Alison D'Vine. Hi, Alison.
Alison D'Vine:Hi Fiona, how are you?
Fiona Kane:I'm well, thanks. How are you today?
Alison D'Vine:I'm going pretty good. Today is my admin day, so it's a bit more relaxed and chill, so I'm having a good day. So far, I'm pretty happy with it.
Fiona Kane:Yes, yes, Are you like me? It's business on top and party down the bottom.
Alison D'Vine:I'm literally wearing like my yoga pants right now and like a hoodie.
Fiona Kane:Yeah, yeah, I'm always kind of got the yoga pants type thing on and then the business attire up top for the podcast. And that's the good thing about podcasting and radio and that sort of thing is you can you know, you can be at least half relaxed. So for those who don't know, you just give us a little bit of introduction about who you are.
Alison D'Vine:So, yep, as Fiona said, my name is Alison Devine. I am a social worker, I live in Perth, western Australia, and I have created a men's behavior change program and I have my own private practice and it's the only private practice men's behavior change program in all have my own private practice and it's the only private practice men's behavior change program in all of Western Australia. So I created the program and now we've gone into family court, we've gone into criminal court and so we do service like quite a lot of men now and it's just growing and going from strength to strength.
Fiona Kane:That sounds great and that's really relevant for what we're talking about today, because, as per usual, I always forget to say what the topic is, but today we're actually extending the conversation. I have a VA or a lady who was helping me do some language around podcasts and it spattered out as being a documentary. No, adolescence is not a documentary. It is definitely a drama. So it's good to just remember that it is a drama. But adolescence has brought up a lot of questions around especially children, what they're exposed to online, what they're seeing online and how that might be affecting them and whether or not that is affecting their behaviors, that sort of thing. So that's what we want to be talking about today. So it'll be along those lines and I might just set it up a little bit for you, because I already have sort of talked about this on the podcast before. So, with adolescents, in my opinion, great drama, great series, great acting and just a really great conversation starter. So from that point of view, I loved it.
Fiona Kane:From another point of view, I just felt like they were kind of trying to say that the incel community, which is people, which is what is short term for what they call involuntary celibates, people, young boys who watch kind of Andrew Tate type videos. They were kind of saying that they're quite a big threat at the moment in society. And I would argue that they're not a major threat. There's other things, especially in the UK. There's other things going on there. So from that point of view it was a bit sort of like oh, maybe focus on the bigger issues on there.
Fiona Kane:So from that point of view it was a bit sort of like maybe focus on the bigger issues, in saying that it still is an issue and what children watch and what children are exposed to, or even just young men are exposed to and young women. But this is kind of a bit more about the young men. What they're exposed to is important and does matter. So today I think it'd be good for us to explore a little bit about what the kids are exposed to and that kind of. Because you work with men, that in-cell community you could maybe talk a little bit more to that. So I suppose the starting point would be because I know that you have watched the series, so maybe a little bit about what you thought about it and especially in your work with men, how that you know what you've got a different perspective, because you've got so much experience there yeah, 100.
Alison D'Vine:Thank you, that's a great question. Um, you know, see, when I watched it I was more caught up in the drama of it. Like I'm really glad you mentioned that it's a drama, not a documentary, because it is very evocative, like it brings up a lot of emotions and me, having a 14 year old son, you know, like to see that and how scared he looked and you know, like when he peed his pants as soon as the SWAT team like or TRG as we have it in Australia, broke into the, into the house. You know, that was just like for me. I got caught up in the drama. And then, you know, I had to sort of take a step back, like after I watched the entire thing, and sort of think about what I watched.
Alison D'Vine:And it reminded me of this book that I read. It's called Men who Hate Women and it's all about the incel community. Um, but, like, when I read the book, it's like I guess the focus of the book was that it's very big in America. It's quite like you know, that's why a lot of the shootings happened. They were sort of saying about that. You know, the Joker, the guy that did the Batman Joker killing, like he, you know, and so I think in America it is an issue because of the gun violence.
Alison D'Vine:You know there's young men not all the men that use guns and have gun violence are incels but I think that is an issue in America a lot bigger than the UK. I think it might be moving into the UK, might be moving into Australia, but it's all very underground and at the moment it's not the biggest issues, like you'd mentioned. I'm Australia, but it's all very underground. At the moment it's not the biggest issues, like you'd mentioned. But I think it is good to be aware of what are our children watching and what are they being exposed to. And it's a very timely reminder to kind of yeah, check in with your boys and see if they're okay, you know, and check in with your men in your life and see if they're okay.
Fiona Kane:Yes, yeah, and look, one thing that I think is important as well. So, so, incels, I suppose it would have been you know when, when I was younger, it probably just would have been like the nerdy guys that couldn't get girlfriends or whatever it would. I suppose it would be that kind of guy. These days, I think there's more of these and, like I don't even really want to pull I don't want to call people names, but this is just the language that they're using in this but these unhappy men or men who are alone, or men, boys, whatever there's, I think these days it's there's a lot more. I think there's so many things that have contributed to this. We've got, you know, we've got this sort of online world, so a lot of people are doing things much more online and not you, you know, not dating and not seeing people in person. That's a kind of a big part of this as well, but there definitely are a lot more of these people today than there, probably, than there ever were, and it's kind of. Also, I know there's financial issues, those sorts of things as well that you've got the you know, I know I left home when I was 17 or something. We used to leave home when we were 16, 17, whatever, but now a lot of kids are still living at home when they're in their 30s, and so that's kind of changed as well, that kids have often just stay with their parents longer. So, anyway, there is more of this community and what I wanted to delve into a little bit, I suppose in general with, maybe with men and boys, but in that community it's not just about sort of having a go at them or saying, oh well, what are they doing?
Fiona Kane:Listening to Andrew Tate? For it's just like, well, why are they listening to Andrew Tate? What does he offer? What is he offering them that they're not getting? So how are they ending up in this situation? And's you know why are they listening to him? And um, and you know what should? Um, yeah, I know, maybe let's just start there, just asking 37 questions in one. Let's just start why? Why do you think they're attracted to someone like andrew tay?
Alison D'Vine:well, I mean, if you go back to what one of the um comments that you made before, which was like when, when you were younger, um, like the nerdy ones would probably be the ones that were not getting girlfriends and maybe they would be the part of that incel community if there was one back then. But, like in today's society, it's grown so much in that, like, because of financial constraints, people are living at home, so maybe they can't bring a partner back home. So then there is that you know a hate around and they like, oh like, hate and shame around themselves. But they'll sort of throw it onto women and be like, well, it's the woman's fault that I can't bring her home or whatever. So there's that financial constraints.
Alison D'Vine:There's also, like someone like Andrew Tate, he diagnoses, so he gives you that, like you said before, he diagnoses into like alphas and betas, right, and so, like, nowadays, betas are any man that's not getting into a relationship. A beta is any man that's not financially secure. A beta is any man that's not jacked up with muscles and has a Maserati right. And I think Andrew Tate giving you almost like an instructional guide on how you can be an alpha and not a beta, I think that's what a lot of men are drawn to, and it's more the materialistic things and the materialistic body. It's nothing to do with someone like, say, for example, we talked in the past like Jordan Peterson, who gives you more that like psychological advice and, you know, gives you that guidance, whereas Andrew Tate gives you more the.
Alison D'Vine:You buy this and you buy Maserati and you're an alpha. You date like 20 women and have them on your roster, and you're an alpha. You date like 20 women and have them on your roster. You're an alpha. You go to the gym seven days a week. You're an alpha. Those are not alphas. Those are just very insecure men that are just trying to find answers in their life.
Fiona Kane:Yes, yes, and frustratingly, I think a lot of people and I'm the one that brought it up with you before we started, but a lot of people that don't really know see Andrew Tay and Jordan Peterson in the same category, and they're so. Not because Jordan Peterson what he's doing is he's actually helping these kids and his sort of advice is, you know, it's that whole make your own bed thing, but really it is get your house in order. So it's like, if people aren't finding you attractive, and it's not like go out and get surgery or whatever, but it's more like if you're not attracting girls, well, what are the things that you could do that could make you more attractive to girls? Well, maybe you know, get a job and you know, maybe you know, have a shower, make your bed, look after yourself. You know those sorts of things you don't have responsibility.
Alison D'Vine:And I think yeah, because Jordan Peterson really talks about discipline and I think discipline is an art form that has been lost a little bit.
Alison D'Vine:You know, people kind of just do the quick fixes and even, like you'd mentioned, with online dating, I was actually talking to another like my supervisor yesterday, my clinical supervisor and I was saying how I was, I'm now single, so I was on like the dating apps and I was like I feel like it's uber eats, but for relationships like you're just swiping and going, oh, that looks a bit all right, it's like the same when I'm looking like when I'm hungry and I'm like chinese looks good tonight, like it's that same space, you know, and I think, um, like the andrew tates make it easy to jump on those apps and get like 20 girls, whereas jordan peterson is like be disciplined, like if you are, you know, not attracting women or you're not getting those swipes, eat, eat healthy. You know look after yourself. You know be disciplined. And I think that discipline is a lost a bit because we're in a very quick consumerism, quick fix space.
Fiona Kane:Yeah, and I think that's it too. I think the Andrew Tate thing is that it's kind of the shallow, short term things, whereas Jordan Peterson's the lifelong, the things that you will do that will sustain you for life. And that is the thing that I think a lot of young people maybe it's not really explained to them very well, but historically it's always been the case, unfortunately that young women generally are attracted to. There's a couple of things. So one, women are attracted to a certain level of success and health and those things, because we are made to keep the human race going right, so that's just kind of how it works right. So a man that can support you and a man that looks like he's very unable to bear children, kind of thing. It's the same the other way around. Men are attracted to women who you know bearing children, all that stuff. There's this kind of whole biological thing that we don't even think about. That is already there. So that is just part of evolution and part of how we are attracted to each other.
Fiona Kane:But also, though, you know, women are kind of attracted to guys who you know. Of course we want someone who's capable and all of those things. We're often attracted to someone who's a bit rebellious or stands up or is a bit louder or flashier or whatever the thing is. But sometimes, you know, when you're a young woman you can see you can mistake that for being powerful or or uh, or confident or whatever, and it's not always competent. But so we're often attracted to what I would say is often the bad guy. Put it that way um, when we're younger or the rebellious guy used to be kind of the guy, the motorcycle gang or like whatever it is, but we were attracted to like the so-called bad guy. And then generally, as we get older, we want to settle down and have children and we realized the bad guy's not the one for that.
Fiona Kane:And that is actually when these you know so-called incels or the you know the boy at school who everyone ignored because he was a bit nerdy. That is when he becomes attractive to women, right? So he's gone out, he's spent a few years getting his life in order, and we look at the deadbeat boyfriends that we've been hanging around, who are all flash but nothing behind it, and then we do settle down, more often than not with the one who just went out and got on with his life and set himself up as a success in his own life and that he can't come, can't? That boy comes into his own, you know, and that is when he's attracted to women. So that's the other thing as well, because I think in these incel communities, I think they're being told in their communities that they're never going to find anyone and no one's ever going to want them, and I don't think that's true. It's also a timing thing.
Alison D'Vine:And I think you know you're very right there is this term called hypergamy, which basically refers to women wanting to be attracted to, like a higher level of man who has his life together, as opposed to you know the flash car or the motorbike and the bad boy with all the tattoos. You know, we've all been there, done that. I could literally be in a room and spot like the only bad boy and be like call me boy and be like call me. But yeah, that the term hypergamy, like, refers to the idea that as women get older, we want to sort of date like more settled men, you know, with degrees, and so that the hypergamy is this idea. It's not just about looks, it's also about like, um, their degrees, where they're at financially and you know how they present in life, and that's that like where women are dating that higher level of men. And so people kind of sometimes don't understand why those certain men are getting all the swipes. And so that you know, I guess the incel community or the Andrew Tate's of the world will say, well, they're getting the swipes because you know they're alphas or like. But even I was reading this book by Lewis Howe Sorry to go off track a minute but he was talking about the different masks that men wear during their life and there's one called the sexual mask which basically looks at relationships as like relationships are for quitters, so it kind of encourages men to like sleep around and you know all of that kind of stuff.
Alison D'Vine:And I think the incel community kind of goes down that track of like the dating con artists and the you know the quick fixes and the you know sleep around and relationships are for quitters and that kind of stuff. But realistically, in everyday life, women are aiming for the higher level men due to also biological, because like hypergamy refers to like, yes, like psychological, like our need to sort of be safe as we get older, but also biologically, you know you want the man that, like genetically is smarter potentially, so your genes will be smarter, you know your children and so, yeah, it is an interesting space to be in and it's actually quite a sad space because I feel like really sad when I like when I read that book Men who Hate Women. It's written by a woman who's a journalist and she sort of really like goes down like this real, like boohoo, like men are worse, blah, blah kind of. You know men are shit and toxic and all that kind of stuff.
Alison D'Vine:But to me it's really sad because I do think part of also why the Andrew Tate's are so attractive is because men don't have rites of passage anymore. You know, like back in the day, we are um creatures, like even though we've evolved so much, but we are meant to be, you know, biological certain ways right. And then, like you know, back in, like in villages and you know caveman days, if you even go as far as back as that, they were traditions and they were rites of passage when a man knew he's a man. Now, you know, and he has to work for it and that's what made him a man, which is like what um Jordan Peterson says, that discipline, like work for it and you'll be that man right.
Fiona Kane:And so I think that's really sad that men don't have that now anymore, you know yes, and not only that, but we're labeling a lot of male behavior as toxic, and we're labeling masculinity as being toxic, and that's I think that's a huge issue for me is that I can name things that are toxic when they are fine. However, you could also there's a lot of toxic femininity as well, so toxicity isn't just one. It doesn't just belong to men, it belongs to women as well. All human beings can display toxic behaviors, and there are toxically masculine behaviors.
Fiona Kane:However, what we're doing is we're kind of pretty much saying everything that's masculine is toxic. So then it's kind of like what is it? You get like the alphas or you get the soy boys, kind of thing. It's like nothing in between. But I always and it really really annoys me because you see, all of these I don't know if you've ever watched any of those like the Whatever podcast, all those sorts of things but all these girls, oh my God, these girls just sit there and they say, oh, wouldn't it be better if we had a world without men. It'll be so much better without men. We don't need men, blah, blah, blah yeah who's going to do.
Fiona Kane:You know and I'm not saying that women don't do any of those things. But let's be fair, come on. When we talk about the equality and the gender pay gap and all the other things, we don't. We don't want to be down in the sewers cleaning them out. We don't want to be up a tree during a storm getting the power lines back on frontline battle, who's going to be the first responders?
Alison D'Vine:I mean, yes, there are women who are first responders I'm not saying they're not and women in in the army, but there are bigger proportionate of men, because men again, with those masks there is like the stoic mask or, like you know, the athlete mask, and those are the men, like you know, they can put those masks on and go into business and go to war and you know um, push through the pain, push through the fear and just achieve what they need to do. And men, I truly believe, can do it better than women because they compartmentalize. My apologies, they can.
Fiona Kane:There's always exceptions to every rule, but largely just men are made that way psychologically and physically. It's just how it is right. And so when you see, like when those Californian fires were all on and you're looking at all the people, who was there trying to fight them? Right, who was there and when? Like all of these things that happen, and whenever there's emergencies, whenever there's anything where you need, you know first responders, whatever. So many of those people are the men in our lives or, just like for these Californian airhead women who were talking about don't need men. Well, where do this? Where does their electricity come from? Where does their iphone come from? Where does their internet come from? Where does their water come?
Fiona Kane:from when they flush the toilet. What if they start flushing the toilet and that you know it doesn't flush right? What about when they you know they're rubbish? Who removes their rubbish? Where does that go? Who delivers their groceries to the store so that they can buy the groceries, or you know?
Alison D'Vine:like grocery, like cartons, you know. Again, it is physical, like you know, like, and I always joke around, I'm like as, because I work with men, there is that masculine side of me that comes out, like I'm, and I've always been, a tomboy, right, but like I always joke, even if I was angry at you, when some, some of the men you know, they say, oh well, I was defending myself against her. And I sometimes say, even if I was angry at you and I punched you, my punch would not hurt as much as if you punched me, you know. So there's just biological things, no matter how hard I punched you, like me being five, three, like I'll punch you. It's like, and some of the guys are like, yeah, it would feel like like a little toddler, like punching, you know.
Alison D'Vine:And so if you look at, like army first responders, going back to that, we need men in those spaces and with all those masks, even the athlete mask, the stoic mask, you know, they can have their positives and negatives. So the positive is that they can switch off, compartmentalize and go and do the job. The negative is when they take it home. So that's when they take it home that everyone calls it toxic masculinity and these masks are awful, but it's just understanding the nature of the beast and just going.
Fiona Kane:There's positives and negatives to every situation in life, but if we only diagnose, like and just go, that's it, that's the, that's the issue, then we're going to be stuck, you know, um, in like a space where we're all just against each other yes, you definitely, and there's something that I sort of sometimes say with my clients, because a lot of my clients are women most of them are, but I've got a handful of men that I see and a big part of my job in nutrition is getting people to connect to their body right, and when I talk to men about it, sometimes with men they're not really connected in that way. They're connected in other ways, but not in the way that I like paying attention, listen to the symptoms and those other things yes, can I just pause for just one minute?
Alison D'Vine:yeah, yeah, sure, let's pause sorry about that, guys.
Fiona Kane:We just had to pause for a moment. Uh, what I was talking about is that, uh, with these men. I talked to these men who sometimes have trouble connecting with their body and sometimes, again, people see it as something wrong with them. But I just always say, well, it's actually completely natural Because, if you think about it, they are the ones that I made to be able to go out and do the. You know, back in the day it would have been go out and fight for the village or catch, you know, catch the bear or do whatever. But you know, if your role is to go out and make it happen and save the lives of your family and defend the lives of your family and all of that kind of stuff, if that they do, or, you know, frontline, whatever, if they're kind of thinking how do I feel today and how does my tummy feel? How does you know and do I have a bit of a headache and what are my emotions like today? You know, like it's not going to work right.
Fiona Kane:So there's, a reason they're that way. So it's actually not like some terrible fault, it's just natural and and then in fact it's actually, I think, for most human beings it's. I'm always over that balancing because I think it is actually really really healthy to be able to identify and deal with emotions, but it's also really really healthy to know how to get on with life and sometimes not just being your emotions, because being in your emotions 24 7 is also not helpful. The balance is there, but, yes, what I'm trying to say is I suppose it's a natural thing for men, for a very good reason.
Alison D'Vine:So, again, it's not looking at everything that men do that might be different bit different to us as being some sort of fault and I think we've all human beings, we have that masculine and feminine aspects to to us, right, like, for example, when I, at work, I step into this masculine space where, like I'm one of the boys and you know, being a tomboy, I can relate to them quite well. We crack jokes, you know, we do therapy, and I can relate to them a lot easier, right, because I step into my masculine. But then when I get home to my children, I fall back into my feminine, and I think men can do that too. So when they fall back into their feminine, when they're with their children or their partner and they're that soft, it's funny because men will be all soft around their partner and give them cute little pet names and then in front of the boys they're like, hey, babe. But then at home they're like you're so cute. So men also fall into their feminine and they can fall into their masculine.
Alison D'Vine:But I think when we absolutely label and diagnose the masculine as being unhealthy and encouraging men to be more feminine all the time, I think that's where, like, men are getting confused as to what am I and who am I, and so that's where, a lot of the times, when they're not able to connect to their body and emotions. They don't understand, and that's biological, that they will have trouble sometimes connecting to their you know emotions and their body. But when you're sort of labeling that as like for example in my work, like as a perpetrator, like they're a perpetrator because they can't feel emotions, they're a perpetrator because, you know, they don't feel empathy, but again, like similar to the book when I was reading, I have so much compassion for that because they're not, and I absolutely hate the word perpetrator and I hate the word like bad and evil. And you know, I once saw a training around domestic violence and the name of the training was called bad to the bone and I was like, oh, that just kind of gave me a bit of a feeling Because I think, no, they're not bad to the bone, they're not.
Alison D'Vine:They just don't maybe understand some of the coping skills or they don't understand their role, you. And so when I talk to them I don't use the words bad, evil, dangerous, I use the words safe and unsafe, because if you sort of learn in your life to balance out, like you know, there's times when, um, like I, might be unsafe but it doesn't make me a bad person. All I need to do is work back to my values, go back to my core and be, you know, safe and use that terminology. So I use the terminology safe and unsafe because that I feel takes away some of that stigma and shame around men not being able to express themselves.
Fiona Kane:Yes, look, and I understand in the way that you're explaining it, I understand that I personally do think there is such thing as evil. I've lived for long enough to see what it looks like. So I do believe that there is that and I do think there are some people who are very bad people and I personally believe there are some people who can't be. You know, who can't be won't change, they're going to stay that way. So that's my personal belief.
Fiona Kane:But in saying that, I also understand what you're saying, as in I feel like if you just go into a whole group of people and just say everyone who who, uh, you know, commits a certain crime or does a certain thing, they're all evil and bad and like bad to the bone kind of thing, obviously that's not true and there's a lot of reasons why people will commit these crimes or why they might be violent and that sort of stuff. So I think that, yes, you don't just label everyone as evil. Uh, you go in there and you work on what's going on behind the scenes but I do certainly believe there are a percentage of people women included actually who are evil. That's just my personal thing.
Fiona Kane:But I understand what you're saying about the language and what your distinction is.
Alison D'Vine:Yeah, but, fiona, you're right, there are people that are, you know, I guess, bad to the bone in a way, and it's called the dark triad. So, right, there are people that are, you know, I guess, bad to the bone in a way, and it's called the dark triad, and like when you, uh, so there's research done and they call it the dark triad, because the dark triad composes of maculism, who the people just want to see the world burn down for no reason. You've got your narcissist that fall into that category, so like actually clinical, diagnosed narcissist. And then you have your psych, your psychopathy, which is like your sociopaths and your psychopaths, right? So that's 15% of the population, of both men and women, that fall into that category. So, and in my 10 years, though, I have to say, I've only met three men that I would literally diagnose as like sociopaths and narcissists, three out of 10 years, you know. So there is, there is a percentage of it, but it's not as big as we think.
Alison D'Vine:And I think, you know, again, with some of these podcasts, that people like again, diagnose, and I'm a massive fan of not diagnosing, because the word narcissist gets thrown around so easily, you know, oh, my ex was a narcissist, he was a narcissist. And you know, or like she was a narcissist or whatever, like I actually banned that word in my, in my practice, like all the guys know that they're like Alison, won't let us say it, we'll get in trouble. Because I, literally, when they've used it in the past, I pulled out my DSM-5 and I go, oh, if you think so, let's go through the category and see which ones say tick. And they're like no, don't do that. And I'm like no, we want to use that word, let's use no. And then I'll be like so. Here's the difference. People can have.
Alison D'Vine:Narcissistic behaviors doesn't make them a narcissist, it just makes them a bit of an asshole. They just garbage humans sometimes, but they're not narcissists. You know, come on. So yeah, do bad. I'm like you can call her an asshole and call her like a human garbage person. If that's how you feel, use your words. You know, feel those emotions and heal. Like you know, when I work with the men. But narcissists, I'm like no. Until you met a true narcissist, you will not know a narcissist. Until you met a true sociopath, you will not know what that's like. You know, and I've looked into those faces. Like I once worked with a man who killed his partner. He had no like when we sort of try to talk about the crime. He had no remorse. Um, he had no remorse for her family because she had daughters. He had no remorse for it and he actually got quite annoyed. He was like I don't want to talk about it, like I don't care, like I literally don't care.
Alison D'Vine:And then he dropped out of counseling because he just did not care that he killed someone and you know the way he, like you know, it wasn't even like a I don't know, like it wasn't even something like big, it was just like she didn't. He didn't agree with her and that was evil like I've seen evil.
Fiona Kane:But that's why I wanted to clarify, because some people and I know myself, I'm the same there's certain things that you'll hear on a podcast. You'll be like what? So it's good to clarify. There is evil, and that is absolutely an example of evil, where people's lives and what you do to them means absolutely nothing to you. So there is that of people, but that's not who we're here to focus on today.
Fiona Kane:So we're here to focus on, you know, regular people who are doing their best, who may be getting it wrong or they haven't had the rights of passage or they haven't had the right support. So, if we sort of go back into sort of looking at, you know, young men and you know, like we've talked about we they often being, you know, toxic masculinity and all that kind of stuff what are some of the things that you feel that we can do in our society to support these men and these young men, uh, or even boys, uh, and, and you know, to make it, to make it better for them and to so that they don't feel like they need to be listening to Andrew Tate? What are the things in our society that we could be offering?
Alison D'Vine:I think you know if I look at it from two lenses, there's your clinical lens. You know that the work I do and I look at it as a parent because I've got three boys, so like I'm a boy mom, and so from like a clinical perspective, I think working with adolescent boys or men, it's all about normalizing masculinity and removing the stigma and shame from it, right, helping them not feel shame for feeling certain things or doing certain things, helping them be aware of their emotions and regulate them accordingly. So, and I say it's okay to switch on and switch off, you know, but like, say, for example, fifo guys, like I've heard so many times, it's heartbreaking for them because every week or every two weeks, every three weeks, they have to literally leave their family and go.
Fiona Kane:And clarifying for people, fifo is fly in, fly out. So there's a lot of those people in, especially in Western Australia, because there's a lot of mining community there, so there's a lot of people who fly in and fly out for their work. So, as you were saying, two weeks've. Actually my cousin's a FIFO worker, so I think he does five weeks at a time. So he lives not far from Sydney but he flies over to Western Australia and I think he does I think it's five weeks at a time, and then he gets home for five weeks and away for five weeks. So I'll let you keep going, but people are like what's a FIFO?
Alison D'Vine:Sorry, we use acronyms, don't we? We love it, but yeah, no. So FIFO guys talk about this idea of leaving their family and they have to switch off. Like you know, what some of them even do is they don't even step into their work gear until they get to their work. So, like some, some men will wear their work gear from the time they leave their house onto the plane and then they'll just kind of jump into work. But there's some men who it's so hard for them to switch off that they will leave their own clothes on, get on the plane in their own clothes and then when they step into that camp, that's when they'll put on their uniform, right.
Alison D'Vine:And so there are times when you have to switch on or switch off. But you have to normalise that, not just say because you switch off, you're toxic or whatever, you're a narcissist or a sociopath or whatever, because there are times when you have to switch off. But it's normalizing masculinity, normalizing emotions and how you can switch on and switch off, normalizing shame, because I think a big part of also today's society like with that lacking of that rites of passage is that there's a lot of shame around things men do and if they do. If they do, if they do error, then you know the whole world collapses back on them and it's just understanding that you may do unsafe things, but you're not a bad person, you're not an evil person. You know, I had a client in front of me sit down yesterday and say he thinks he's evil because of the things he does. And I said to him no, you've just grown up in so much trauma that the way your brain is wired is that you switch off more than others. Trauma that the way your brain is wired is that you switch off more than others. But it doesn't mean you don't have a soul. Because he was saying he's so evil he doesn't even have a soul. And it broke my heart right because he was 30, 38, so his whole life he's been living like that. And I was like, no, you do have a soul, we all have a soul. It might just be buried a bit deeper down. Your emotions, empathy might be buried a bit deeper down, but you do have it. So it's like normalizing shame, emotions, masculinity, and so that's from a clinical perspective right. From a parent perspective, I think it's kind of the same, but on a lesser degree.
Alison D'Vine:So doing things like talking to your children, your boys, about like pornography, for example, and helping them understand that that is not the real world. I think that's a big step. Like, if we go back to that incel conversation, like a lot of them think that that's what women are like, because the wording that they use in the incel community for women are like fembots and like breeders and that kind of stuff, right. So like it's like, yeah, talking to your young boys that pornography is not the real world and pornography is not like that's not how men and women should be. You know, talking to your boys about nutrition, you know looking after themselves, especially when they hit puberty.
Alison D'Vine:Like my oldest, he hit puberty and he had hormonal, or he has hormonal acne, and so it's like supporting him through that, because he went from being this cute little blue-eyed every like the first son born in like the entire family. So everyone was like, oh my god, you're so cute to now he's like I'm, I'm so ugly, you know. So I have to keep like you know, talking to him about it and normalizing that. This is like hormonal acne and you will pass and this will pass. But if I wasn't, for example, I could easily see him stepping into that incel community space because you know he does feel like he's left out. He does feel like he's hated or not popular at times. So then you know, having those conversations with him to normalise his space and it's normal to feel like that, you know it's okay that you feel that, but turn that pain into lessons, you know. So talk to your boys more. I think just talk to your boys more and just yeah.
Fiona Kane:And I think, too, what you were just saying. There too, I think we need to. And look, this is a we won't go deep into and I have talked about this on the podcast before and this is without notice for you, so it's up to you how much you want to delve into this. But I've got a big issue around basically transing the kids, and I think that we need to normalize puberty and I think that we're not normalizing puberty. So these kids are going through puberty and they're thinking that, oh, it must mean I'm in the wrong body or there's something wrong with me or whatever it is.
Fiona Kane:And the truth is that puberty is really hard and when we're in puberty, we really don't feel connected to our body, we really don't enjoy being our body. It feels wrong, and for so many reasons. So you get the acne or you look weird, because we tend to look weird when we're in that space between you know, it might be a cute child, but adolescence and puberty doesn't always look so cute, you know. But then there's another side of it, like you grow up and you get to the other side of it. So it's a bit like the cocoon thing with the butterfly.
Fiona Kane:You know the caterpillar to the butterfly yeah and so I think that we just need to, because I I've heard a lot of interviews with um, the transitioners, who say that no, no one told them that it was normal, that all the things I was going through were normal, and so I think that we like and we either don't talk about things or we do, but we over-pathologize them and turn them into like a diagnosis. Yeah, when a lot of things are just normal, puberty is hard and you know, for girls it's hard. I've talked about this on this before but for girls puberty, I just know for my experience is when suddenly, you know, you start sort of getting curves or whatever, and then suddenly boys and men start looking at you differently, and some of them in quite an uncomfortable and maybe even a kind of almost a dangerous or kind of you know really, uh, uh, really feel like they pray kind of way yeah yeah, it's very frightening and very.
Fiona Kane:It's really awful actually and it's really challenging. So, uh, every everyone that has challenges around puberty and what that feels like and what that is like, and it is really normal. So I think that normalizing it and just reassuring whether it's young men, young women, that a lot of these things are really really normal, but they just they kind of they sort themselves out on the other side you'll be be fine, kind of thing, cause most of the time you are.
Alison D'Vine:Yeah, I hit puberty when I was 12. So, like, I got my period, I think I was 11, 12. And then, as soon as, like, I got my period and hit puberty, my curves were like from being flat chest like bang, like boobs, like you know, bang butt and and so I hated sport because, like I went from being able to run and play soccer with the boys to now like this boing, boing, boing and I was like I used to, like I used to literally write fake notes and from like my mom and be like please excuse Alison, from sport today because, or like I would double bra it sometimes, like I'd double bra it and also put a sports top, like a sports bra, and then my t-shirt and that was, you know, a big part of me growing up was like getting used to my body because, like my boobs grew before I grew, you know, and so I would get boys staring at it and the dynamics did change to the point where I remember like being a tomboy usually, like when I did hit puberty, I kind of like buried deeper, deeper into it in like my late teens and my 20s, where I was like the tomboy to the max, so I'd wear like my friends. When we'd go out, they'd go clubbing in dresses. I'd wear like um, like adidas, like swish pants or like you know the ones where you'd walk in that goes, you know, like fancy trackies, and I'd wear like a bucket hat and I was literally like the Missy Elliott of my group, like you know. So Missy Elliott like, if people don't know, she was just a tomboy and she would like wrap, but she would also dress with like bucket hats and like Adidas and Adidas jackets and Adidas, you know pants and like shoes and that sort of stuff. So I literally was like a Missy Elliott, like you know, growing up and it made me feel in some way safe.
Alison D'Vine:And it was only in my late twenties, like when I was 27, that I was like, oh, I can be a girl now, because I finally felt like I grew into my body and that's when I did my hair and my nails and you know all of that kind of stuff. But yeah, it is a transition period and I think, like I keep saying, like, talk to your kids, talk to each other, like normalizing those things and not just hoping it'll sort itself out, because it doesn't and then children will jump online and then they will again do that diagnosis thing that we keep talking about. That I absolutely hate and the diagnosis part and so and they'll gravitate towards particular groups and even if it doesn't quite sit with them, they will gravitate towards that group and they will diagnose themselves, as you know, whatever the topic is on those, on those TikToks or podcasts that they watch. So, yeah, I think it is. The internet can be a great space, but it can also be a very dangerous space, especially if it's not what's the word like monitored?
Fiona Kane:as a parent, yes, yeah, definitely, and we have to. I think that the old fashioned having dinner with your family around the table thing in the evening might seem old fashioned, but it has a you know it's, it works really well. It works for a reason because we really do need to be having discussions with our kids. And I think that you know my experience. Look, I, I don't have children.
Fiona Kane:So, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm coming across as really judgmental and that's not the intention, but just saying my observations is when I, you know, when I was a child and we went to visit people or they visited our house, whatever, we had to be really polite and we had to learn to sit and talk to them and we'd go and sit with them at the dinner table and you know, and then we might at some point be dismissed and allowed to go and run off and play, but we were expected to engage with visitors and engage with adults around us.
Fiona Kane:What I've seen a lot of over the last few years is children that are not encouraged to engage, not expected to engage, actually so much so that they don't even look at you when you walk in the door and acknowledge you or say hello to you and they're in their game or whatever, or they bring their games or their phones to the dinner table and they spend their whole time with their face and they get like that sort of thing. That's not helping. We need to actually be able to teach our children how to have conversations, how to talk to adults, how to talk about difficult things, how you know just how to, how to converse yeah, um.
Alison D'Vine:So for me I guess being ethnic, that's always been part of my life, like you know family would come over and you'd be like hi auntie, hi uncle, you'd give them a hug, a kiss, and then you'd have to like you'd not have to, but you had to sit down and kind of make conversation of like what's what have you been up to, where's your life? Blah, blah, blah. And then, yeah, after a while then you kind of leave and go play with your cousins and all that kind of stuff. So for me I've grown be like Elijah, come talk to, like you know, your godmother or whatever you know, talk with us.
Alison D'Vine:So I think it's important, like I said, to, like you said, to include children, because it also teaches respect. You know like we talk about. If you go all the way back to the start of the podcast with that discipline idea, you know all kind of weaves together because respect, respecting others also links to respecting your body and respecting yourself. Right, and that's how you build discipline. And I think if you, if you have a culture of like people, children that are not respecting elders, that are not learning from them even you know listening and they're not, then they're in turn, not respecting their body, and then, in turn, they will then gravitate towards the andrew tate's or the incel communities, or whatever it is, because those are all quick fixes you know, definitely, definitely.
Fiona Kane:And one thing that Jordan Peterson talks about a lot I can't remember the exact languaging around it, but essentially he just talks about how having responsibility is actually really, really good for us and it's actually what makes us happy in life and it's what gives us meaning in life. And so I think the other thing too, for you know in my observation, is that children need to be given certain levels of responsibility, and not that I mean not overly done and not responsible for their parents Every dinner yeah, but you know, but not no responsibility as well.
Fiona Kane:Like people, sometimes they just go one way or the other, don't they? They go a bit extreme one way or the other, but children, if they have responsibility, they actually respond really really well to it, and so I think that's an important thing as well. Is that you agree?
Alison D'Vine:Oh, absolutely, because there's also with responsibility, comes this term which is called optimum frustration. Right and like when I used to work with children because I've been in this industry for 18 years now, coming up to 19, and so when I would work with the parents and children because I was a child and adolescent counselor for one before I worked with the men I would talk about. This idea of optimum frustration is that our children need to build a level of optimum frustration in their lives, whether it's responsibility, or like chores, or like not getting what they want all the time, because that's what's going to build resilience. You know, that's how we build, that's how we learn to pick ourselves up when we fall down, because we have experienced that little level of optimum frustration. Now again, like you I'm not saying you know, make them slave away on every night dinner or, like you know, start working and doing a paper round at the age of like five or six or you know whatever else. It is so, but don't always say yes and create that some level of optimum frustration in their life. So they are, and that also links to like anxiety, because when children don't have an optimum frustration, alongside not having that resilience capacity, to them.
Alison D'Vine:Anxiety is a big part of it, because it's like I can't do things now. Or if I fall over, how do I pick myself up? And then anxiety becomes a big thing, but again undo things now. Or if I fall over, how do I pick myself up? And then anxiety becomes a big thing, but again I'm very much like I'm not diagnosing. So when people say I have anxiety, I'm like is that the clinical definition? Should we go into the dsm-5 and look at a generalized anxiety disorder or is it just you're anxious? Again, normalizing being anxious, it's totally okay. But don't be like oh, I have anxiety, you anxiety, you know. I'm like okay, dr Google.
Fiona Kane:Yes, you experience anxiety maybe.
Alison D'Vine:But that doesn't mean it's a diagnosis, yeah. You don't have generalized anxiety disorder, you know.
Fiona Kane:I think that's an issue too, is that? What you were just talking about? There is that if children don't have challenges and they don't learn that they can, you know you can find your way back from the shops, or you can pack the dishwasher, or you can, whatever the thing is right, you can make a phone call, whatever the thing is that you're, whatever level, age and all that, et cetera. When you get to do things, you get to be more confident in yourself and you get to know that you can do things mastery, mastery of tasks, mastery yes, exactly, and so we need that.
Fiona Kane:But the other thing, too, that, uh, that I see happening is in universities and things. You know, I see it across the us, but I'm also seeing it in australia, where students can't have someone come and speak at the university who has a different opinion, because they feel triggered. It's like, oh, so what? Like I thought the whole point of university was actually to go and learn how to explore lots of different opinions and how to debate and how to talk about it and how to, you know, open your mind to all different ways of thinking about things. But they, you know, they don't, they're the opposite. They kind of we don't want a different opinion and they feel threatened by a different opinion or by different language, different opinion, and they want safe spaces. They actually provide safe spaces where they can go and do colouring in if they feel triggered by something that's uncomfortable. Surely they need to learn how to be uncomfortable.
Alison D'Vine:Yeah, I think, again, that comes back to that optimum resistance and, you know, getting different opinions from different people, although, like, I do disagree a little bit with you because I think sometimes some people like celebrities, sports, you know, they use very biased because there is like spectrums of everything, right, there's spectrums in religion, there's spectrums in masculinity, femininity, there's spectrums in everything. But when you get someone that's like the end version of the spectrum, that's speaking in schools or colleges, like there was this, the Super Bowl, one of the footballers that won the Super Bowl last year, he was talking at a university in America and you know, I mean he started off, okay, he's a religious background, and you know that the I mean he started off, okay, he's a religious background. His mom is actually a physicist, so I'm guessing she maybe wasn't around a lot, um, so you know, when he was talking, he goes. Although you women are graduating today, I bet the one thing that you're really excited about is, you know, the one day when you'll get married and cook and clean for your man. So I think that is a true achievement, because my wife didn't come into her own until she became a wife and started cooking and cleaning for me.
Alison D'Vine:Like to me that's the extremist version. Like there's women that have studied hard and they've, you know, pushed through all their resistance and all of that, you know, persevered, and for him to absolutely like shit all over it and be like this doesn't even matter because the only thing that will matter is when you get married and become a housewife like to me that that's uncalled for. Like you can have your religious beliefs and stuff. But to me that opinion came more from his childhood trauma, not from, maybe, what he truly believes. You know I mean.
Fiona Kane:So I think that's like that that's a I suppose that is a whole other topic and that we could. We could talk about that for hours, but what? The only thing I would say to that is like, regardless of what he did or didn't say, it didn't harm someone. You could just think, oh, I don't agree. And not only that, but the thing at university is a lot of the people that go and speak. I think that might have been a graduation or something, so that's more specific where everyone goes.
Fiona Kane:But what I was referring to is the ones where you don't even have to go. It's just like hey, like you know, so-and-so is going to come and talk, like Ben Shapiro or someone, right, he's going to come and talk at the university. You don't even have to go. But what they're doing is they're trying to stop it from even happening and they're triggered because it happened, even though they don't have to actually have anything to do with it, and I think that that is wrong. People should be able to speak in all different and you don't have to go, you don't have to agree with it. And but also, yeah, if that guy says that the trad wife thing and like, some people are all for that, some people aren't whatever. Like wherever you fall on that, that's fine. But even if a guy gets up and says trad, wife, stuff, like it didn't hurt you, it was just a different opinion and you can, just you can accept or reject it, you know what I mean. Like, but it's not harming you.
Alison D'Vine:I think I think it does. Like I mean, I'm a bit of a geek right and so I always like um, refer to like the suit, the spider-man quote, which is, like, with great power comes great responsibility, right and like I think, when you're in a space of like having power, um, what you say matters, right, and like it might not have physically hurt someone. But say, like a woman was really trying hard, like she came from a minority background or she came from a poor background and she had to push through Princeton and you know all of those kinds of things. And you know, like driver, catch a bus like two hours, and then for him to say, no, this degree doesn't matter and you need to be a trad wife, I think no, it didn't physically hurt her, but it still it would sting me. But then I guess for me as a person and I'm speaking personally for myself I would take that as a you're telling me I can't do it.
Fiona Kane:I'm going to do it and so it kind of it can.
Alison D'Vine:But then that goes back to, I guess, again what I was talking about before, that idea of having resilience. So yes, it did hurt people in there. I can guarantee it hurt them emotionally, but it's how they pick themselves back up. Because you know, when I was working in men's behaviour change for the government and NGOs and stuff like that, the way I worked they didn't like it because I was a social worker. So I'd want to do the counselling plus the men's behaviour change program and they were like no, you're not their social worker, you're not their counsellor, the counselor. So then that's when I sort of quit my job and I started my company.
Alison D'Vine:But I know, when I first started, like people were like no, you can't do it, like do you know how hard it is? Do you know you have to stick to all the guidelines there's like a massive Bible size, like guidelines, and I literally was like you know what that's going to push me and give me more motivation and I'm going to do it. And within like a month of like quitting my job, I'd literally created the whole program and I started practicing by the second month, you know. So, yes, I think that idea of resilience, optimum, frustration, responsibilities, discipline, all of those things kind of come together right Like so. I think those are important, but I also do think what you say matters as well.
Fiona Kane:So yeah, yeah, what you say matters, but at the same time, I just think you've got to teach people to be tougher and I think that you can just say, hey, look, this guy said something I disagree with it and I'm going to prove him wrong, right, and the thing is, but you can survive it, right? You have a different opinion, but you will survive. You know, and I think that I don't know, I'm a Gen Xer and I'm just of a generation where it's like, oh man, I just don't believe in banning everything and calling everything hate speech, because the problem is, once you go down that rabbit hole, then who decides what is hate? Right, because hate. Like you could hate something because you're religious and I say something and that offends you, right, or I could hate something if I wasn't religious and you said something that I felt, you know, like it goes on forever and it's the same thing.
Fiona Kane:I shall give you another example is, at the moment I see, like the companies sort of doing an opt-out thing for Mother's Day, marketing, right, because people might get upset. And now, look, I personally, now I hate Mother's Day. My mum's passed, I don't have kids, so to me I don't like it at all. It's not a fun time for me anymore, but that's a me problem and I don't think everyone in the whole world has to not celebrate Mother's Day, so I feel better.
Fiona Kane:And if the marketing companies start getting people to opt out of marketing for Mother's Day so they don't feel offended or upset in any way, then the next thing they're going to have to do it for Father's Day and they're going to have to do it for Christmas and they're going to have to do it for Easter, because everything could potentially be offensive or upsetting for someone. And the truth is in life sometimes we just have to know that we're going to have emotions and we're going to have experiences and people are going to talk about Mother's Day and I'll probably feel sad on Mother's Day about my mum because people are talking about it. But should the whole world change their behaviour so that I don't have an emotion? Or is that just a me problem? And I actually think that's just a me problem.
Alison D'Vine:I agree with you, like I mean in that little bit, a little bit not, but I do think a lot of the stuff around like I'm triggered and you know all of that is it's a me problem. You know, around like I'm triggered and you know all of that is it's a me problem. You know, like I'm offended, it's a me problem. But I think certain things, again, like I go back to, is when you have great power or you have a position of power, when you do say certain things, it does turn into hate speech because it is excluding people, it is, you know, creating, you know, barriers when they shouldn't be barriers, right? So that is. Hate speech is when it hurts people, it creates barriers, it creates division. But I don't think we understand again the definition of hate speech because, again, online and podcasts and all of that, but hate speech does exist out there, it's just not everything and you know like, for me personally I don't like Mother's Day, even though I'm a mum and I have a mum.
Alison D'Vine:But the reason I hate it is because I remember before my son, my oldest, I took Mother's Day in kindy. There it was pre-primary. All the mums went in and the kids pampered the mums, like painting their nails and giving them little cupcakes and showing them around the classroom and stuff like that. And there was this one girl who didn't have a mum because her mum passed away, because my kids go to private Catholic school, so literally every kid in there has like both parents and all the parents were married, right, all that kind of crap. So this one girl just didn't have a mom and so it just broke my heart, you know.
Alison D'Vine:So I think, yeah, I don't know, like I personally don't like Mother's Day for that reason. But it's again, it's a me thing, and so if my kids do give me like you know what they've made, I'm not going to be like oh, whatever, like I'll be like thank you, babies, and I'll hug them and kiss them and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, just because I don't like Mother's Day, I don't know, you know, I don't know if that should be totally banned. I don't like Father's Day either. I don't think that should be banned, but we need to be very specific about the definition of hate speech.
Fiona Kane:Yeah, yeah, and that's where I think the problem lies. And who decides what the definition is and the way I see it being used, like there's a way that maybe it could be or should be used, and obviously hate speech is kind of like I hate a certain race and I want them all killed or something. That is hate speech.
Alison D'Vine:The way it's being. I see it being branded is speech I don't like hearing.
Fiona Kane:There's a difference between something you don't like hearing and something that's really hate speech.
Alison D'Vine:Like even Katy Perry was recently accused of, like you know, spreading hate speech when she went and like flew in the little when she was an astronaut and all that kind of stuff. So people were like hating on her so much online. So, yeah, there is that um, because we do have social media so accessible on our phones that we do um, you know, I can get diagnosed. This is hate speech and whatever. But true hate speech is like the kkk right. True hate speech is, like you know, people like killing each other in the name of religion, like all of those exactly.
Fiona Kane:So that's the thing.
Fiona Kane:And even like what you were talking about with the diagnosis and like labeling someone narcissist or whatever the problem is, I think that what we're doing is we're actually, if we like you don't if everyone's a narcissist, then no one is, then the definition doesn't mean anything. And I say the same thing, like if everyone's a Nazi, then what is a Nazi? You know, like there's all this kind of stuff. So I just think that when we use a whole lot of language or we call everything hate speech because we don't like it, or you know, I think when we over-pathologize the world and turn everything into like hate and dangerous and this and that and Nazi, blah, blah, blah, it actually waters it down for the true situations where there is true evil or there is true hate speech or there is true narcissism or whatever it is. I just think that we water it down when we use the language in everyday language and just for things that make us uncomfortable, and I personally think that we should actually learn how to be uncomfortable. Sometimes it's good for us.
Alison D'Vine:You know, as a counselor, we're taught, um, to lean into your discomfort. Lean into, that's how you grow, that's how you learn, that's how you learn to tolerate people like I mean, people sit in front of me with all different kinds of opinions, right, and it's like I didn't like someone, I'm not going to be, like, get out of my room. I mean, I've had to say that once to one guy that was quite um, like aggressive and all of that kind of stuff, you know. But aside from that again, um, so yeah, like you learn to lean into your discomfort. That was one of my biggest lessons in life when I was in my 20s and training to be a counsellor and I would actually recommend it, especially in regards to things like politics.
Fiona Kane:It's actually, I think, it's really healthy to listen to like I will listen to podcasts of like podcasts I don't agree with. I will listen to them so I can hear their perspective. So it's actually, I think, really healthy, and even it look it might, just it might. You might just reconfirm what you already know, but know it a bit deeper, or you might learn something new, or you might just learn a bit about how to humanize the person with a different opinion, which is fine as well. But I actually think it's actually really good just to sometimes listen to things that you don't agree with, because I think that there's always opportunity to learn, and even if what you learn is that that person's a human on the other side that's useful.
Fiona Kane:But anyway, you and I, we could go on for hours. Obviously, there's so many things we can talk about, but let's just wind it up here. Look, thank you so much for coming on today. Look, I will put your contact details in the show notes, but where can people find you if they want to find you?
Alison D'Vine:um. So you can find me on Instagram it is SagencyWA S-A-G-E-N-C-Y-W-A, or you can find me on all the W's dot SagencyWAcomau. Or if you just google Perth's men's behavior change, we are the first link that comes up. I didn't actually realize that. So when people check in on google and stuff, and the more check-ins that you have on google, the higher you go up the page. I didn't realize that. So when I saw it the other day, it would blew my mind that we're the number one. Um, even though a private practice and someone um google's perts men's behavior change, domestic violence, we're the first one that comes up. But yeah, if you just Google Pertz Men's Behaviour Change, you'll find us there too.
Fiona Kane:Okay, great, thank you and, like I said, I'll put the details in the show notes. Thank you for coming on today.
Alison D'Vine:I really enjoyed chatting to you.
Fiona Kane:Even the things we disagree with. That's fine. That's all part of it.
Alison D'Vine:It's conversations that we're having, you know. I think that's important to model to people, that you can disagree but do it in a respectful manner, and that comes with that resilience and discipline, all that kind of stuff you know.
Fiona Kane:So thank you so much for as well, for your, we can both hear something that we don't like or that we don't agree with, and guess what?
Fiona Kane:we're alive we survive if we hear something, uh, which is a useful thing to learn anyway, but uh, but thank you, I really do appreciate you coming on and, and for those at home who are watching or listening, please like, subscribe, share, please rate and review the podcast. All of those things will help more people hear from this podcast, and we try and have. What I try and do is have real conversations about things that matter, and so these are the kind of things that are worth sharing with your friends and family.
Alison D'Vine:So thank you again, allison okay, have a good day all right, see you all again.
Fiona Kane:See you all next week. Thank you, bye.
