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The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane
Real Conversations about things that Matter
All things life and health - physical health, nutrition, mindset, mental health, connection plus society and culture with Fiona Kane, experienced and qualified Nutritionist, Holistic Counsellor and Mind Body Eating Coach
Frank discussions about how to achieve physical and mental well being.
I talk about all things wellness including nutrition, exercise, physical and mental health, relationships, connections, grief, success and failure and much more.
Some episodes are my expertise as a nutritionist and holistic counsellor and some are me chatting to other experts or people with interesting health or life stories. My goal is to give you practical and useful info to improve your health and tidbits that you may find inspiring and that may start discussions within your circle of friend/family.
The Wellness Connection with Fiona Kane
Healthy Shame vs Toxic Shame: How to Tell Them Apart | Ep. 133
Healthy Shame vs Toxic Shame, in this episode of The Wellness Connection Podcast, Fiona Kane explores the surprising truth about shame and how it can shape our personal growth. Learn how to recognise the difference between toxic shame that holds you back and healthy shame that helps you grow, build empathy, and become a better version of yourself. Discover why feeling a little uncomfortable sometimes can actually be a powerful teacher for emotional awareness, humility, and connection.
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Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection podcast. I'm your host, Fiona Kane. I'm actually going to be talking to you about the surprising benefits of shame today. Might sound like a crazy topic, but uh bear with me. Let me explain to you what I mean. So, like many things in our world, we kind of go a bit one way or the other, we kind of go to extremes. And I remember when I was a child seeing that there was there had been a lot of shame in the world, and I know my grandparents and my mother, people in my life were brought up with a lot of shame. And I saw the sort of the toxic effects of that, that it was sort of overboard, where it was really toxic shame, really unhelpful. And you know, when when we were talking about toxic shame, it really can, it's like put you in that deer-in-the-headlights kind of inability to move space because your nervous system is reactive all of the time, and you know, you're kind of just obsessing about what people might say or what people might think. So shame can be a negative thing, but like many things, it's dose-dependent and it's it's can swing one way or the other. You can have too much water, you can die from water intake, or you can die from lack of it, right? So a lot of things uh that way, they're about dose. So I want to talk just a little bit more about this and what uh you know what I mean in regards to this. So first I wanted to um you know just clarify that the difference between sort of toxic shame and healthy shame. So, you know, this toxic shame is uh, you know, where we blur the lines of um, you know, cognition, like I was just saying, like uh we end up in this nervous state and we we can't we just think everything we're in trouble all the time and you know uh everything's about us and everything's our fault and really, really bad for your mental health. And um, and when we look at those sorts of things, essentially, you know, we we feel like our our needs and wants are bad and we shouldn't be allowed to have uh have needs or wants or make mistakes, all sorts of things, right? So we don't want toxic shame because that is unhealthy. On the other hand, there is such a thing as healthy shame, and healthy shame actually helps us function in the world and helps us connect with other people, and it's pretty much that thing, it's the difference between whether or not you're an a-hole or whether or not you can be a decent person. And I think that we all all experience this in our lives. Like I know myself, there are times in my life, there are moments in my life, and I remember them, some of them in particular, where I was a real a-hole. I just said things that were ignorant and stupid, and I had no idea. And and someone called me out on it and told me why I was being ignorant and stupid. And I learned, right? I felt deep shame, but I also learned, and I learned to have more empathy and to use my brain a bit more and to, you know, widen my horizons and not be so narrow-minded. And lot many things I learned because we we essentially we do need to learn how to be a human being in the world. And you know, I think um Jordan Peterson says this, and he's right, something along the lines of, you know, your children, you make sure your children are people that you like being around, because if you don't like being around them, nobody else is going to, right? So you've got we've got to socialize them to the point where, you know, they have we can be around them. If your child, you know, for their whole life is, you know, they're losing monopolies that they flip the board upside down or that kind of thing. If you're doing that, of course, you may or may not do that a little bit when you're first learning about sharing and playing and whatever. But over time, you actually do learn that that's not socially acceptable, and you don't create friends by doing that, right? So it's kind of our role in society, it's our contract with society, the contract we have with society, how we choose our societies to be, what we want our society to look like, and how you have a functioning society, there needs to be a certain level of shame so that we do act within certain parameters, right? And you know, that I think that is okay. It's if if it's extreme, it's not, but I think it's okay because if you should feel shame if you're harming other people, or you know, if you've murdered someone, or you know, that there's things that shame should absolutely be attached to because we should know that those things are wrong. So shame is there for a reason and it plays a role. And what I'm seeing more and more is that we have said that well, shame's bad and evil, and therefore we should abolish shame. And no, we shouldn't abolish it, it has its place, and you see it more and more, and you see it in lots of different ways. So you see it in things like um, you know, even just the thing with children, they all get a merit certificate, they all pass, they all, you know, you can't get fails, you can't get an F, and everyone has to get a participation certificate, blah, blah, blah. It's you know, that shame of actually failing because you didn't try hard enough uh is actually a good thing. Now, yeah, obviously there's always extenuating circumstances, and if you need more support and all of those things. I get that. So I'm not saying that we should shame people who, you know, aren't good at certain things or whatever. Uh, there's ways of doing these things. But at the same time, uh, for many of us, the reason we don't pass or don't do well is because we don't prepare. And when you first realise that and you realize you've got to actually put the effort in, or there's a consequence, right? Essentially, there's a consequence to not putting the effort in. It's not a bad thing to learn that there's a consequence, and part of that might be that shame. I I remember the first time I couldn't pay my rent because I spent all my money on clothes. Anyone who ever knew me, surprise, surprise. And I had to ask for money and um and loan some money, and I just felt really shamed that, oh, I'm a grown-up and I can't even pay my own rent. How silly am I? And uh, I'm not again, I'm not shaming people who are having issues now and the what the way our world is and and with uh with the way with the way finances are for people at the moment. But you know, in my situation, it was very much, it was very clear I'd just done it to myself, right? So in situations where we've done something really silly, we've done something to uh to ourselves, we've caused ourselves a problem, you don't have to shame someone forevermore. However, that that bit of shame that you have when you kind of go, okay, yeah, I've put myself into a difficult situation. Maybe I'll I've you know I'm gonna learn now that that's not a good idea. So it's like I said, it's about dose, it's situation, situational and about dose, but I've learned to be better. I've certainly learned to be a better friend and learned to be better at how at how I talk about different things, and uh you know, like I was saying before, times where I've judged people or just said things that are purely ignorant. And I have had moments in my life where people have absolutely called me out. Uh, they've ever called me out by, you know, when I was much younger, uh, I've had people uh unfriend me for because I was just an a-hole. And and I'm not talking about some more recent things that have happened in my life, but many years ago, right? And I reflect back and think, oh my god, the way I treated that person was terrible. And because I was a young adult and learning how to be a grown-up, and I didn't do it very well, right? Uh, or you know, the times where I said I've said things that are really, really ignorant, and I've had someone call me out and say, that's really ignorant, Fiona, this is why. And that I felt shame, but it was actually a really good thing, a really healthy thing, because it made me reflect on the issue and think about it in a different way. Because have you ever thought about it this way? And when I thought about it the other way, I was like, Oh, yeah, you're right. And uh, you know, so it's useful because it makes us uh reexamine what's going on for us and grow as a human being. So, some other examples of where I'm seeing this sort of play out in the world. Uh, what I'm essentially seeing is I what I'm seeing is what we've done is we've really lost a lot of Christianity in the Western world, uh, in the world. And I'm not particularly religious in any way, although I feel like I'm heading in that direction or becoming a bit more that way inclined. But what I've noticed is when we've when we've lost Christian values, our societies replace it with other things, and it's not necessarily healthy. So while I'm not arguing for everyone must be a Christian or everyone must be part of the church, on reflection now, a society with Christian values wasn't a bad thing, and not having that, I think, is a net negative thing. Is there like there's negative things that come with with religions, all those things? I understand that. I'm not being extreme about this. I'm just saying the general idea of Christian values, which is you know, kind of love thy neighbor and and act like a decent human being isn't a bad isn't a bad thing. That's not a negative thing, but we've uh thrown it away, thrown it away in our society a lot. And I think that we need to uh re-examine things and look at what values have come in to replace that. So the sorts of places where I'm seeing this is things like uh, you know, recent events where essentially people celebrate the death of someone else, the murder, the assassination, the assassination of someone else, because they had a different opinion to them or they didn't like what they said, or they perceived them to be on the other side of the, you know, whatever. Uh, you know, if if you're involved in a war or something and it's Hitler, I'm like I get that, but just um, but not in the sort of things that I'm talking about, you know, like Charlie Kirk. But uh not only celebrating it, but filming yourself celebrating it and cheering each other on. Where's the shame? Like there should be shame. That's celebrating the death of a father, young man. That that why is there not shame around that? That is disgusting. You know, that should be shameful, and it's not being shameful, it's actually being rewarded in some places and uh cheered on. That to me tells me that um our society's kind of lost its moral compass somewhere. Uh then there's other things like um, you know, and this might be uh well, all of these things um ultimately end up end up being you know, political or whatever, but celebrating abortion as an empowerment and and as a way of birth control, like it is it's one thing to to need to use to need to do this at times in life. And I'm not judgmental about choices that people have to make and that these things happen. And I I I kind of do believe in uh women having those rights to a degree, and that is fine, and I've always sort of been okay with that. But there are again, there are elements of society that are not just saying, okay, sometimes these things happen and we need to be, you know, it should be, it should be rare and and you know, and early and all of the rest of it, and let's just uh minimize these things, which is one way, like which is once upon a time the healthy way of looking at it, and the way that the left actually did look at it, but now it's actually women on podcasts saying, Oh, I've had five, oh, I've had six, oh, you know, what like there should be some shame around that. Like, I don't think women should have to feel ashamed that they've had these issues happen in their lives and made these choices. But if you're if you're choosing it as your firm of form of birth control and you're really proud of it, I think there is something shameful about that. So not shameful that it ever has happened or that uh people make those choices, but shameful that you don't make better choices overall and you're using it as a birth control tool. Yeah, I think, yeah, I that to me that is shameful. So then celebrating it and being proud of it, that is just weird to me. Uh, and then there's a whole, you know, don't yuck my yum. Have you heard that stuff? Well, again, I get it from a point of view of like not being judgmental about what other people are into and not everyone's into the same thing, and not everyone enjoys the same thing, and you know, some people are straight, some people are gay, this and that, whatever. Fair enough, I get that. But there are some things I am going to yuck, you know. If you're so there's some yums that I think are absolutely disgusting, and I am going to yuck that. And um, and you know, this is the kind of things that people are harming children and that kind of thing. There's a certain there's some things, yeah, I am gonna yuck your yum. So in general, you know, healthy uh healthy adults in private who are who are consenting is one thing, but there's just this whole kind of weird vibe going around where it's like we need I'm supposed to accept certain things. No, I'm I am gonna yuck your yum if I think you're shameful. And you know, and that's where you see this thing, like when you look at things like pride marches, and um, and I'm not anti-gay or or any type of thing. I celebrate all different kinds of people, it's wonderful. But when I was growing up, it was actually it was a um it was a march for rights and for you know health and rights and and dignity and all of those things, which is fair enough, which is exactly what it it was about. And some of the the way that uh gay people in society were treated for many, many for a long, long time is horrific. So I'm all for that. I used to actually go to you know go and celebrate uh you know the Mardi Gras in Sydney, that sort of thing. But in some places, Pride Now has become this horrible pornographic, fetished display of let me show you all the most disgusting and vile things that people can do to each other, and I'm gonna do them on the street, and you should celebrate me. No, no, definitely not, right? So, and I've heard a lot of gay people say this as well. This isn't an anti-gay remark by at all. It's just people now think that there's there shouldn't be any shame, and they feel like they can just do stuff on the street that is shameful and disgusting in front of children, that sort of thing. And we should celebrate that and not don't yuck my yum and you should celebrate me. And yeah, no, I'm not celebrating that. No. Uh, do what you want in your bedrooms. Again, the consenting adults, all that stuff. But you know, that's not pride. That's not pride. And if that is pride, that's revolting. Like that's just that's not what pride ever was, and that's what it's sort of become and becoming. Um, so I haven't been near anything like that for a long time for that reason. I just think, oh yeah, no, that's not okay. And um, like a lot of my uh gay friends and people, like podcasters I listen to, that sort of thing agree with me. They say the same thing. Uh, they don't want to be associated with that sort of behavior. And then there's things like where we're uh eating ourselves to death and celebrating it and the whole kind of I've talked about it before, but the you know, health at every size where we've celebrated morbid obesity and we've celebrated uh there's you know different um again, it's it's good to have as someone who's battled with my weight my whole life and been up and down and all the rest of it, like I I get it, and I don't think that we should shame people for putting on weight, and I think that it's it's a complicated and that when we're really shameful about it, that's that can be a real toxic shame and that's not helpful and quite harmful. On the other hand, when we have Sports Illustrated magazine celebrating morbid obesity, that's not healthy either. So, you know, there's there's just gonna be conversations around this where we, you know, we've gone too far and we're celebrating things that aren't helpful or healthy, and that whole kind of Lizzo thing. I mean, even Lizzo has sort of finally losing weight or lost weight recently and realized that um it wasn't something to celebrate, uh, having such a big um weight issue and health issue for her. So, you know, it's those kinds of things as well where we've sort of celebrated uh celebrated not looking after ourselves and celebrated being really unwell. The other thing that we celebrate is we celebrate being children forever and being really immature and you know, there's sort of p-to-pan lives now. So there are adults now who kind of, you know, there's one thing to say, oh, I chose not to have children or I wasn't able to have children or whatever, and that's fine. You know, and I get that to a point and do something useful with your life, that's great. Uh, and I I'm in that category of someone who wasn't able to have children, but also wasn't sure if I wanted them at different times. And I get all that, no judgment about that. I think we, you know, it's complicated, fertility is complicated, life is complicated now, and we don't all aren't all able to have children. So that's fine. But then then there's but there's this again, there's this extreme, there's this extreme kind of celebration of being a child forever and influences sort of going online, kind of saying, Well, you know, I've got it better than you because I can, I don't know, get drunk every night and go and you know, party with lots of different people and you know, indulge in lots of random sex and take drugs and whatever because I get to be the eternal teenager and I get to spend all my time playing video games or whatever. And they actually do that like say that like they're really proud of her. And it's one thing to be, you know, it's it's you know, it's nice to have a certain amount of freedom, and there certainly is there's freedom associated with being able to do things that you want to do when you want to do them, and being able to go out and go to parties or go to see a rock concert and those sort of things. It's great, you know. But then there's kind of just being a Peter Pan and being a forever child or forever teenager and just not growing up. And again, there's there's a line somewhere, and I think we've crossed it somewhere where people are kind of going, really going to the nth degree on that one and being really, really proud to, you know, basically I'm 65 now still live in my parents' basement sort of situation. And um, yeah, no, that's not something to be proud of. And and again, yeah, I don't know. So there's a certain level of shame that, you know, shame can be motivating. It can be what uh what gets you out of bed and go you go and work, or you and or you try harder in your job because you mess something up, so you try harder to do better. Uh, or like I said, the social contract stuff where you know how to treat other people and you know how to get along with other people and you know how to have you know self-respect. So respect that you look after yourself, your body, your cleanliness, your health, and all those things, and respect for other people as well, for them to look after themselves, all of those things. So there's you know, when shame is a driver like that, it can be a really good thing, and and so yeah, I think kind of getting rid of shame or kind of saying shame's all a completely bad thing is not being has not been healthy and has not been helpful. And I think that we need to embrace it the healthy shame again, and um, and some sort of sense of Christian values of some kind, uh something along those lines. And uh I think it's healthier for us because we but it makes us grow grow up and behave like sensible human beings and uh be kind and and be caring and you know, and I hear about all this empathy all the time. It's really, really weird because empathy seems to be more for there's a lot of empathy for people who want to not be grown up and who want to not look after themselves and who want to be perpetual victims, but no empathy otherwise. It's really, really weird that empathy is yeah, it's probably a whole episode on its own just talking about the weird vibe around empathy these days. Um, you know, and even just things like um, you know, there's an author who is a really good author and someone who I used to really look up to and now I just oh, I can't. Um, and it's Liz Gilbert. And Liz Gilbert shares things that she should really be ashamed of, and she is not, uh, which makes me wonder about her looking at the personality types and the dark triad of personality types and things. She's you know, she's kind of sharing how she wanted to kill her partner because her partner was dying and it was really hard for her. And um, not saying, you know, I've been in situations where you've been dealing with someone who's at the end of life and it's really frustrating. And sometimes, sometimes you wish they were out of their misery and so that everyone could be out of their misery. I like I do get that, but this this is a whole next level thing, this was though. This was a whole next level thing that she's celebrating in her latest book. And she talks about in an essay how she used to deliberately destroy relationships and marriages, and she'd sort of just she learned how to be, she said, you didn't have to be anything amazing, you just had to be different to the wife, and then you could learn how to act in a certain way, then you could take that person from their partner, this kind of thing. And the more I read about the things that she says, it's kind of weird because it's like in plain sight, it's the people act like they're all about empathy and spirituality, and we're so wonderful and we're so evolved. And in plain sight, they're actually telling you who they really are. And um, I'm looking at her for the first time and kind of thinking, wow, okay, you should there's some some places where um shame would be really helpful for you. And I don't think she has any at all. And I uh I don't think she's a good person. Um, she's a good writer, and I've enjoyed reading some of her books, but I think um I think she's a bit of a parasite on other human beings, and she uses other human beings to basically get her get content so she can market herself and write books and sell books, and yeah, that's my my opinion, just my opinion. And um, yeah, I don't know, that's just the feeling I get from her at the moment. So, you know, shame isn't toxic by nature and doesn't necessarily have to be harmful. So even though we we've we've kind of thought that or we've kind of realized or pathologized as being sort of something that's detrimental, um, it can be a really powerful ally for us. And um, and you know, we need to create we need to create enough space to calm our nervous system and gather our resources. And I've talked a lot to you about uh about building capacity, and building capacity can allow us to sort of feel these negative feelings of like where we feel shame or we feel bad about something, but then use that to build a better version of ourselves and to to uh motivate ourselves to do better, not use it as a way of hating on ourselves forever. So, you know, it might be just pausing a little bit and um you know, creating a some compassion around a situation. So it might be some compassion for yourself or self-compassion for others. Um, and that is fine. Um, get your strength back up and and learn a little bit and get back into it. But um, but yeah, it's shame can have a role. Excuse me, I just have a sip of tea. So yeah, shame can be really beneficial when we use it the right way, and it really can help us connect with others because sometimes we do break agreements in relationships, or sometimes we don't realize exactly what we're saying. I know there's been times in my relationship with my husband where when he reflected back to me what I was actually saying to him or how I sounded, I was ashamed and I should have been, right? And that's not a bad thing to actually, you know, if someone sometimes people need to hold a mirror up to us and show us how we're behaving and who we're being, because we don't always realize it. Um so some degree of shame, it just reminds us that um we're not isolated people living on an island that aren't and we're not answerable to other people, we are answerable to other people to a certain degree, and we're also answerable to ourselves, and if we have certain boundaries and certain uh certain uh policies, not policies like sort of social contracts in place, that does help us do well, and and even just in general, if you just look at human beings as in general, or when we look at bringing up children, that sort of thing, we've always known that having healthy boundaries is really, really good for children, right? So it doesn't mean terrible restrictions where people can't grow and be who they want to be and all of that, but at the same time, a certain level of boundaries actually does help us, it does motivate us because if every day was like a Sunday and you were not answerable to anyone or anything, that is not healthy for human beings, it's really bad for our physical and mental health. So having social contracts is not a bad thing. Um, and you know, so you know, healthy shame, healthy shame does orient us towards growth, it helps with our growth. So if we use it the right way, it we grow into a better human being and we're able to transform ourselves into a better human being rather than just sort of um the toxic kind where all we do is stew in it and um don't move forward at all. So I I think um, you know, toxic shame usually is that kind of inner critic stuff where all we're doing is just having a goal at ourselves and hating on ourselves. So we do need to learn how to have some self-compassion, show up for ourselves, just showing up regularly for ourselves and being kind. Shame though does give us uh a taste of humility. So I think that it is good for us sometimes to be humbled, sometimes to have humility and realize that we're human beings and we're not better than other human beings and all that sort of thing. So I think it's sort of a yeah, it's like a gentle reminder to stay humble. Shame can be as well that uh that you you've broken a certain contract, or you can, you know, you might think you're the nicest person in the world, but guess what? You can be an a-hole too. So it is good to know that and learn that and just have a reminder of that because sometimes we just get a bit too we we get a bit too special with ourselves and think we're a little bit too good. Uh, you know, and if we have humour around this stuff, so if you have humour around the mistakes you make and the and the things about yourself, like I always laugh and say, Yeah, I always joke with people that when I'm in situations that I'm like I'm a ray of sunshine, and other obviously I'm not the ray of sunshine, and I guess you know, have I pre deep thoughts and sometimes dark thoughts, and and just I have a different way of looking at the world. I don't know, and I kind of I don't walk around like sunshine anyway. Uh, it doesn't mean I don't do positive things and I don't try and inject positive things into situation, but I'm not miss as I just not miss sunshine, that's just not who I am. But I joke about it all the time that I am, and oh, you you know, I walk into a room and everyone lights up and I miss sunshine. You know, I joke around it because I know that that's I'm not that, and it's a good reminder for me just to sometimes just like have a laugh and to, you know, calm the farm and all those things. So it's just like you know, have a bit of a laugh, have a bit of perspective, get a bit of perspective on on who you are and on the reality, and sometimes having a bit of a laugh at yourself, uh and um being with people who are prepared to laugh with you, not at you, but with you, and hold a mirror up sometimes and just like let you know that you are being a bit of a bit of a dick. It's not a bad thing, right? And um, and so yeah, if we're if we've got in brewing in that toxic shame, we're often drawn to the negative people in situations that only make it worse. But if we have a healthy kind of shame, um then we we develop a level of discernment around that and we hang around people who hold the mirror up for us, but in a kind way, in a compassionate way, and um and you know, we can use it as a superpower and really learn to be to understand where where we can shine and where we don't, and where sometimes we need to just wake up to ourselves. We all do, we're human beings, we're living a human life, and no matter how spiritually awakened you think you are, you're not because it only takes one thing or one situation for you to find out how deeply flawed you are, and that's okay as well. So, anyway, that's just my sort of I think there are a lot of benefits to shame. There is healthy kinds of shame, and I think it's just about rather than just throwing away shame completely and living in this shameless world where we think it's terrible to have any kind of shame, it's just about harnessing a healthy kind of shame and letting go of that toxic kind, but not letting go of shame completely. Anyway, I'd love to hear what you think about this topic, and um, you know, please like, subscribe, share, comment, all of those things because it helps me get this podcast out to more people. And uh, I like to have real conversations about things that matter. And uh talk to you again next week. Thanks, bye.
